| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| stirling321 |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 12:54:34 PM
Are they any top quality pure bred sabino arabian studs in the UK? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sab2 |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 12:15:14 PM
Glo you can always have her tested to make sure she will not produce grey. I once had a colt who was cremello but when tested he was carrying grey so foals would grey out, had him cut and he has a lovely home as a ridden pony. I haven,t bred so far from my chestnut sabino as in pallies they do not seem to like the sabino ones as they do not do well in the pally classes. I like the sabino,s myself  |
| glo |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 08:54:54 AM
Found this very interesting as I have just brought a cremello mare can't see any making and checked both sire and dam out to make sure she wasn't grey! Looking at her passport I think she is a Sabino welsh after reading this. She has 4 above knee white legs with the back going up to the addomin, large white blaze, mussel and jaw going back to her neck line, blue eyes.
Hopeing to breed her next year. |
| TAE |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 4:21:06 PM
Thanks Faracat.
As a foal Li's colouring was closest to the wild bay. I guess I'd be happy whatever the colour so long as it inherits his temperament, but it would be nice to have a colour that doesn't stain so easily. Though with the increasing number of fleabites he's working his way back to that anyway. |
| heathermcbreen |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 3:15:12 PM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Silvabak-Stud/132420446783994
Silvabak stud will probably be breeding some extreme ones they have a new colt for stud next yr called RHOCKEFELLER he looks like the type you like. |
| pinkvboots |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 11:11:44 AM
Arabi is a very similar colour to the Arab above and he also has a dorsal stripe hence the nick name of donkey boy |
| Faracat |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 09:34:55 AM
There isn't a gene called 'bay' but you are right that the agouti gene does cause bay coloured horses by restricting the black pigment to the points.
Agouti has three versions A = bay, At = (seal) brown and A+ = wild bay.
I have seen wild bay arabians.
Ignore the boots. You can see that unlike a standard bay, the wild bay has much less black on the legs. It is restricted to the fetlocks and below, with just a touch on the knees and hocks. Go back to look at the bay horse on page 2 of this thread and see just how black his legs are when compared with this arab.
With greys, if they have one grey gene, it's 50% odds for then having a non grey foal if the other parent isn't grey. If the grey has two grey genes, then it's going to always have grey foals even if the other parent isn't grey. |
| TAE |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 08:37:51 AM
Thanks Faracat.
So Bay is not a specific colour gene but black diluted by the agouti gene ( which does not affect chestnut so can be carried secretly).
If I can ever afford to breed from my boy it could be interesting then as he and his parents are grey, but his dad produces chestnut so he could carry the chestnut gene and produce chestnut, his base colour is bay (from his mother )so he must carry the black gene and agouti gene, so could produce black or bay, and of course being grey he has at least one grey gene so could produce grey (though he is becoming so heavily fleabitten he changes colour ever time he moults).
It seems as if by using a chestnut mare without the agouti gene I could get a whole range of colours. |
| Faracat |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 01:24:42 AM
Originally posted by TAE
Whilst there are several colour experts on here perhaps you could answer something that's been puzzling me.
I thought that chestnut was very recessive so only produced when you have two recessive chestnut genes, as in a chestnut bred to a chestnut can only produce chestnut.
but I keep seeing ads saying chestnut mares are black bred and can produce black.
I thought that being recessive any horse receiving a chestnut gene from its mother and another colour gene e.g. black brown or bay
from its sire would be that other colour, so surely any chestnut mare could produce black. Or is the black gene recessive to chestnut?
I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks Tara.
You are right, chestnut is recessive to black and a horse needs two chestnut genes to *look* chestnut.
This means that horses can carry chestnut, so if they have one black and one chestnut gene, they could have a chestnut foal if the other parent also passed on chestnut to the foal. this is why you can have surprise chestnut foals.
RE breeding black from chestnuts, you can breed a homozygous black to a chestnut and know that 100% of the time the foals will be black as each will inherit one chestnut gene and one black gene, so they will *look* black.
However, chestnuts can carry genes that don't alter chestnut pigment (eg Agouti) butv do alter black pigment. If you want to breed black horses, you don't want agouti or your foals will be bay, brown or wild bay (depending on which version of agouti is involved).
So I always assumed that the 'will breed black' means that the chestnut horse doesn't carry any genes that alter black pigment. |
| Faracat |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 01:13:50 AM
Pangare and seal brown are not the same thing. Seal brown is caused by one of the agouti alleles (At) and has no effect on chestnuts. Pangare on the other hand alters both black and chestnut based horses, as demonstrated by this lovely Haflinger.
It should be noted that Haflingers are often mistaken for palominos, but it is pangare in combination with flaxen, not cream that lightens their coats.
Exmoors have Pangare too and MH is right that some heavy european Draught breeds also have it. The mealy muzzle of a horse with pangare is much paler than a seal brown horse has, but they both have the effect of the paler areas coming up from the undercarriage (normally up from the armpits and up onto the stifles/flanks) but these areas can be big or small. The Haflinger above in his winter coat has a very pale belly too
 |
| TAE |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 6:31:13 PM
Whilst there are several colour experts on here perhaps you could answer something that's been puzzling me.
I thought that chestnut was very recessive so only produced when you have two recessive chestnut genes, as in a chestnut bred to a chestnut can only produce chestnut.
but I keep seeing ads saying chestnut mares are black bred and can produce black.
I thought that being recessive any horse receiving a chestnut gene from its mother and another colour gene e.g. black brown or bay
from its sire would be that other colour, so surely any chestnut mare could produce black. Or is the black gene recessive to chestnut?
I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks Tara.
|
| pinkvboots |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 3:30:57 PM
My mare looks the same as Afri Kawn in the summer so she is brown and just looking on her passport (its in German) it says Dunkelbraun so am of to google but it sounds like brown.
I thought it was dark brown and it is so yes she is brown and not dark bay. |
| sab2 |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 2:19:07 PM
Great way of putting it MinHe and easy to remember. Will Sabino always be passed on when breeding from one, i have a chestnut with sabino markings welsh sec b mare and am thinking about covering her at some point in the next few years with my cremello sec b stallion, i know i will get a palomino but will the sabino markings pass on ? |
| MinHe |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 12:52:36 PM
Originally posted by Liz100
Thanks Faracat, I've learned something new. I've always wondered why Jack has those lighter coloured areas.
The lighter coloured areas are called 'pangaré'. They are most obvious on seal brown Arabs, but bays and chestnut have them as well. In Arabs and TBs the contrast isn't very marked (apart from on seal browns), but in some chestnut European heavy horses the contrast can be quite striking. Ponies too tend to have more loudly expressed pangaré than hot or warm-blooded horses.
I had one seal brown mare whose pangaré areas were quite contrasty (like her dam), and I have at present a seal brown stallion who is just the opposite. In fact, if I were less than honest, I could get away with calling him black (he is at least as 'black' as some widely touted stallions have been!). In fact, his dam was black and he has sired black out of a mare carrying black.
As for sabino and cream, there is an easy way to remember the difference; sabino is a PATTERN, and cream is a COLOUR. PATTERNS alway overlay COLOURS 
Keren |
| Callisto |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 12:30:30 PM
I wondered if that was it, Faracat - it is definitely Sooty looking |
| Faracat |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 11:38:16 AM
It could be Sooty causing the 'dark paint effect.' I believe it was named sooty because it looks like someone has put soot on the horse. ;) |
| Callisto |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 08:40:46 AM
Originally posted by Faracat
ETA - Callisto, I wanted to say how beautiful your buckskin is but I forgot earlier. Sorry.
Thank you Faracat , I think he's beautiful too. In the winter his coat is a lot paler, and in the spring he gets dark hairs on his neck and withers (my Mum says it looks like he's stuck his head up the chimney, although his face stays pale). He also has dark tips to his ears (his left ear more so - to half way down, looks like it's been dipped in dark paint). |
| Liz100 |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 06:44:21 AM
Thanks Faracat, I've learned something new. I've always wondered why Jack has those lighter coloured areas.
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| Faracat |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 10:37:30 PM
He's certainly a pale one, but I'm leaning towards him being brown rather than bay as he has the brown markings, just with a paler contrasting body colour.
Compare Jack with this bay.
 |
| Liz100 |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 10:07:05 PM
So, sorry to hijack this thread, but it is SO interesting ...
I am pretty sure our Jack is bay because he's too light to be seal brown, but he does have that lighter brown nose, girth and flank area. In summer he goes a bit dapple, although it doesn't show very well in the pic. The summer picture was taken a couple of years ago and I'd forgotten how fat he was then 
He is bay isn't he? |
| Faracat |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 9:37:41 PM
Liz - I like seal browns too as I used to have a mare that colour who was really, really sweet tempered, so the colour always reminds me of her.
Garnet - I can't see any hint of seal brown in that photo. It would be nice to see a head shot without the blinkers. The two most likely reasons for black horses having 'copper highlights' are sun bleaching or a lack of copper in the diet (which is often low in UK grazing).
ETA - Callisto, I wanted to say how beautiful your buckskin is but I forgot earlier. Sorry. |
| garnet |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 8:47:14 PM
I find the genetics of colour fascinating!
Black? horse with auburn highlights in feathers? Is he black? Sam at Addington - courtesy of E.S. Photography.
 |
| Liz100 |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 8:35:01 PM
Ah, I always thought dark bay was my favourite colour, but now I realise it is seal brown! I love the contrast of the rich dark chocolate coat and lighter brown muzzle, especially good with white socks and some white on the face. Afri Khawn is lush! |
| Faracat |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 7:42:14 PM
Did you see the report of the white TB foal that's just been born?
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/pure-white-foal-thoroughbred-born/
Although she and her white Dam look similar to both the welsh cremello and Abida (sabino) as she has pink skin and pale fur, I believe that this is yet another different gene at work - Dominant White. |
| stirling321 |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 7:13:30 PM
Abida is beautiful ... how strange seeing a maximum sabino with the grey gene giving the illusion of a cremello pure arab  |
| Faracat |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 6:49:52 PM
RE (seal) brown, it's one of the most commonly misidentified colours. It didn't help that when I was a child, I was incorrectly told that you don't get brown horses. I'm sure that I'm not alone with this. Many 'dark bays' are really seal brown and I've also seen ads for black horses that are really very dark seal browns. It is easier to tell seal browns when they are in their winter coats as they have more contrast. A nice arabian example of a seal brown is Afri Khawn, but most photos of him show him with his muzzle shaved, so his lovely brown fur on that area is gone. In this photo you can see his brown armpit giving away the fact that he's brown despite the shaved muzzle.
Silver dapple gives attractive colours. It only works on black pigment, so it is carried by chestnuts (it doesn't alter how their coats look). In the UK the colour is usually seen in Gypsy cobs but it is more common in american breeds (Rocky Mountains, American Miniatures etc...). I have seen a couple advertised that were incorrectly called flaxen liver chestnuts, but you could see the darkening of the points on the legs and ears giving away that the horses weren't chestnut.
Going back to cremellos, you need a horse with two chestnut genes so that it is a chestnut, plus two copies of cream to give the double diluting effect. |
