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T O P I C R E V I E W
martha615
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 8:18:21 PM This is a very short clip of Esme showing she doesn't need a lunge line or a round pen or a halter for that matter -- well, at least for some things ;)
Not great quality but I was lucky to get my husband to film at all today in the rain!
24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
debs
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 7:13:02 PM I use my own version of clicker with Ali... I'm sure if a clicker person saw me they woukld be horrified!!!! Quite often I dont know where the blooming thing is though so have to 'click' myself!
He has learnt to give me sweet kisses though....
Quarabian
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 3:22:46 PM The trouble with a lot of training methods is they like to think that their way is the only way. I agree with Martha's thinking in her last post. being too wishy washy with a horse can be stressful if the horse is looking for leadership.
martha615
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 11:31:31 AM I will have a look at the thread...maybe...but many people who talk about Parelli have no idea what it is, and I'm even including those who think they practice it, lol! I have a friend -- a wonderful friend, in fact, who I would sell any horse -- and she is convinced she "did" Parelli with her gelding. She did not! He was trained traditionally -- and he was fine! -- but she own an orange stick and she could back him up or move him from side to side using her hand (like most horse owners using traditional methods) and therefore thought she'd "done" Parelli.
I think, too, that NH training is often done at tremendous speed in awful competitions like The Road To The Horse, or certain (now infamous) public demos in which all the training is rushed, ill-explained, and stressful to the horse. You don't have to do it like that.
About clicker, well that's a whole can of worms. The problem is that the clicker people hate the parelli stuff mostly. And they hate traditional horse training, too. In fact, they hate everything but positive-only teaching. They feel that you shouldn't use any pressure when training. The have a positive-only approach, and argue that if a person can train a sea lion to have eye drops put in willingly using only positive training and no pressure, you can train a horse. It's a fair argument, except you don't have to ride a sea lion. To ride a horse you have to get the horse used to the idea that he can trust you to make good decisions and keep him safe, even when he does not really feel all that safe. There is a different form of leadership involved -- in fact, Kalley Krickeberg argues that there are about 3 different types of leadership required to really get the best from a horse (passive, empowering, and command/control) -- and my opinion is that you don't get the leadership stuff with clicker on its own. It's very good for parts of training, however! And I love to use reward-based methods whenever I can (and you can see how it enhances training right away -- it's great!).
So, while I will tell you that Amanda Martin is an excellent clicker trainer that gives lessons all over the country, I will also tell you that you may find the clicker people a little too singularly focussed. Take what you can from it, and don't worry if they think you are cruel because you have other tools in the training kit than treats! Positive-ony methods with no pressure have limits. For example, reward-training isn't very good when you have a horse for which food has little value, or when that horse is frightened. You kind of have to teach a horse to "hurry up and relax". Once you can teach a fearful horse that they don't have to bomb off just because they are frightened, you have a safer horse. I find that doing that requires some pressure on the horse, not positive-only treats.
I think clicker does use pressure, too. They say they don't, and that to "support" with a stick is a nice euphemism for hitting a horse, and that "running into a stick" is just hitting your horse, too, but my experience is that pressure is applied as soon as you put a head collar on a horse. That is pressure in itself. So, it is only a matter of degrees of pressure. I mean, horses live in a human world -- they HAVE to get used to pressure of one sort or other.
One thing that both NH and clicker (and anyone with any sense) agree upon is that there is no reason to punish a horse. Hitting a horse for refusing a fence, for example. And that you should never ask a horse for more when he is trying his best. The trick -- and it is a big one -- is figuring out what is a "try". I tend to be too soft on my horses, and this is a mistake. It isn't even kind. They may feel tremendous stress just because I am "waffling" in my focus...I can't truly know.
FreyaG
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 11:03:57 AM Thanks, Martha.
I have had a little experience of Parelli as my mare was walking into me and the Dutch trainer, Joyce Mulder, who comes over to the UK to teach me-[ and others ] the in hand and ridden work- Classical Dressage and Seat-training -recommended that had a few Parelli lessons to deal with this. It worked and she is much more 'polite ' now. Will look up their Liberty DVD.
Am also interested in Clicker training.. any thoughts on gaining knowledge and instruction ?
Like to take what seems to make sense and use what works for us from various disciplines whether it be 'Natural Horsemanship' or more conventional BHS based.
There's an interesting thread on H&H re Parelli and the horsey public's reaction to this training; does stir people up somewhat......
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 09:56:40 AM I've been watching those back legs carefully, and thanks for doing the same. She's kind of "sticky" in that deep sand there. Where the sand is quite deep in the school she doesn't like trotting through it with me on either. Not sure yet whether this is serious. The chiro came to see her last week and thought she was doing really well, but then that is only one opinion....yikes, who know? she's very strong and sound behind on other surfaces, I think, but maybe when my pasture dries out again I should have a better look at it.
Quarabian
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 09:25:24 AM I wondered about Esme's balance Martha. At least she is bending on the circle when she is loose, but my first impression was that in trot she kind of shuffled her back legs a bit, leaving the outside one behind her. I have tried to study the video but still not sure exactly what she is doing. Perhaps that is why you had problems in trot when you first rode her.
martha615
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 08:26:59 AM FreyaG, I learned my liberty stuff through Parelli. There are four "savvies" in Parelli, a "savvy" being on-line work, freestyle work, liberty work, and what they call "finesse" work. Actually, they don't call it "work", but "Play", which is supposed to remind us owners/riders to have a playful fun attitude rather than a schoolmaster stern attitude. I know the terminology can be off-putting, but try not to let that put you off.
In Parelli, the liberty work follows the on-line work. You teach something using a 12' line or a longe 22' line (about as long as a lunge line) and then when they have mastered that you see if you can get the same thing without the line. The skill is in learning how to control your body so that you send only the cues you need to send to your horse and no extra "noise". People who only work with lines (or reins, for that matter) often give their horses a lot of extra and confusing messages with their bodies and then the horse either gets dull to the rider's body and requests and ignores some of them, if not all of them, or does the wrong thing and is corrected by the rider/owner's use of the line. You see it all the time! So, if you only have your body to work with (liberty work!) you learn not to make movements that don't mean something. You become more in control of your feet, your energy, your focus, etc. All this you can learn just by going up the Parelli levels. However, there is a Parelli DVD just on liberty, itself, called "Liberty patterns", or something like that. I suspect there will be copies on ebay! I don't know if that DVD will be useful on its own with no other Parelli learning under your belt, but you can try.
I use Parelli as a base, add clicker training in there, and it seems to work pretty well. I could use some vast improvements in my liberty work, frankly, but I do a lot of other stuff and have more than one horse. I am going to a Craig Stevens classical dressage clinic next week (am nervous about this!) with my mare, Millie. And, of course, I am trying to get Esme to believe that ridden work is also a nice way to spend her time....she is not so sure! She isn't bad or dangerous, just that her heart isn't in it.....yet! She does love liberty work, at least, perhaps because she doesn't have to balance a human on her back while she does it!
Hope that helps!
FreyaG
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:51:58 PM Yes, hope you get lucky in the prize draw, Martha.
Only have the one horse; any good lessons on line or DVD's that you might recommend for a single horse and her willing owner?
We do a lot of in hand work- Straightness Training- in a cavesson but my mare does 'listen' to me . Have tried a little Liberty with her but would love some instruction.
Quarabian
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:09:13 PM Good luck Martha. Hope you win.
martha615
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:06:21 PM I know, it's an eye-watering price. It's 6 hours of filming, but even so....I paid $130 or something like that for a 10 disk series on barefoot by Pete Ramey and it was the most wonderful buy!
I guess the trouble is that there is only a very small market for "liberty" work. Much bigger market for classical dressage or showjumping highlights, or whatever else there is on DVD.
The thing is, if you are into liberty stuff (and it isn't everyone's cup of tea, by any means!) where else can you get taught how to do it with multiple horses? Kalley's 6 disk series is about working with more than one horse at a time, so that is even MORE of a tiny market!
Hey ho...I've just entered a contest to see if I can win one...fingers crossed. I got the name of the dvd wrong above. It's "The Sport of Liberty....", not the art of.
FreyaG
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 9:40:16 PM But how can a set of DVD's cost $250 ? Beats me how people in this type of Horse Business charge so much for a product that could help us understand our horses.... Surely this educational knowledge should be more 'freely' available or at least not at such extortionate prices.
Sharea
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 9:36:23 PM Really nice to see Martha, thanks for sharing.
martha615
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 7:51:24 PM I am cheating, really. I can do a lot of this in a field, but not the canter work yet. If I ask for canter in her field she is gone, as in . In fact, if I put too much pressure on her in the sand school, she's gone!
YES! ANYONE can do this!!! It is so cool, too. :)
If you really want to see a master at this -- and I am so jealous of this beautiful young woman I am turning green as I type this -- you have to see Kalley Krickeberg (www.horseeducation.com) who often works at liberty with 6 horses at a time and has an education DVD I am aching to buy called "The Art of Liberty".....
....I think I will buy it, actually. :)
Quarabian
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 7:34:23 PM You all might be surprised how many of you can do this!!
I don't want to take anything away from Martha because you have put a lot of time, patience and experience into this mare, but it is possible to do this with any horse.
I used to free lunge my first arab in the corner of a field ( so Martha you are cheating using a school)
Lovely to see her doing this Martha.
debs
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 7:13:37 PM Lovely!!! I daren't try that with Ali in our field, no school sadly, I would never get his head up....
martha615
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 3:58:36 PM Thank you very much -- Esme is a sweetie
I wish I could say she was as responsive when ridden but she is the slowest "race horse" I have ever known....walk is her preferred gait. She will trot but unless it is toward green grass, she has a kind of "must I?" approach to it. As for canter...well....we are working on that. I am sure if there were a bucket of food at the end of a pole, she'd canter....
She likes to jump -- is quite an excellent jumper on line! But when I'm aboard, she isn't sure she can balance the big wad of human on her back as well as get over the 8" pole....but she gives it enough effort so that we don't both fall over!
So....you know...it is a work in progress!!
alison
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 11:53:56 AM Fantastic video Martha, I love the way you work with your horse's.
Pop
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 11:08:03 AM What a lovely gentle pair
Goldenmane
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:06:33 AM Lovely clip, Esme just needs you, she's a lucky girl! (Well done your husband for filming in rain)
Kes
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 08:20:46 AM Martha, the first time I carried a whip I was a bit worried, I remember thinking to myself, what if he's really spooked by it, or scared, as it happened he didn't care in the slightest which was good as I only needed it to open gates when I was off the yard!!
I carry a schooling whip into the arena during lessons as he can be a bit stuffy sometimes, but it goes without saying, I only pick it up, and he gets nothing more than a tap if he ignores an aid to which I know he knows, Carole.
martha615
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:29:33 PM Definitely, Kes! Those are all amazing things to do! I dont' know how Esme would feel about flags....must think about doing that. I've never even carried a whip with her, though I should. Not to hit her with it, but to get her used to the idea that riders sometimes carry props, lol!
And thank you guys for saying she looks so chilled -- she is! However, she'd much rather be out walking through my village than be in the sand school, but I never have any film of her doing that!
I really want to get her used to a bit, and also more forward when riding. She perks up a bit when we trot over poles and she's more forward (if unsure of herself) on hacks. Slowly, slowly, we improve. Heck, at this rate, she should be a fine horse by the time she's 20!
Kes
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:21:33 PM I'd love to be to do this, your hard work has really paid off and the trust is evident.
I spent a long time doing ground work but not like this, I sort of wish I had now, however I can ride over sheet tarpaulin, carry flags and ride over flapping bin liners and carrier bags!! Still trust and training I guess :)
Nichole Waller
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 8:35:21 PM That's great, she looks so laid back and relaxed
SuziQ
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 8:29:15 PM Ahh bless her, what a much happier relaxed lady
Quite often I dont know where the blooming thing is though so have to 'click' myself!
. In fact, if I put too much pressure on her in the sand school, she's gone! 
because you have put a lot of time, patience and experience into this mare, but it is possible to do this with any horse. 