| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 3:16:16 PM
My 5yr old mare Millie was backed this summer, before she came home she had started to be quite sluggish which they readily put down to the fact she is barefoot.
I'd sort of gone along with this thought process as she has been reluctant to hack up stoney paths but I'm really not so sure anymore.
Last autumn my world collapsed when she came in with laminitis and the periods of confinement began, at the time I expressed concern about the very meagre rations that the vets recommended but it did work and after 3 months she had lost a lot of weight.
Millie has become really sluggish though her weight remains good and has been kicking with her back legs when I squeeze with mine, I actually gave her a little kick at the weekend because her stroppy ness was starting to annoy me (I know not good and I felt awful straight away) and she threatened to buck me off!
This morning I was grooming her with a rubber curry comb and she turned and bit me!
I have a strong suspicion about what I suspect is wrong but I would be really grateful to hear other peoples ideas |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sharea |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 9:54:30 PM
Hi SuziQ, this doesn't sound like a foot problem to me, although her toes don't look great in the photo, but more like a possible ovary, hormonal issue, but that's just a guess.
If you were to get some boots at least that would cover that possibility, I seem to remember that old macs are good for wide feet. |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 5:31:06 PM
Thanks for that Etoile I am looking at those and am hoping to order some shells to try for size.
I really am not ignoring her problem and I'm sure she something is bothering her as she is a lovely girl, her feet may have some issues her farrier is not freaking out so neither am I and I am trying to address it without making expensive mistakes. I will have a poke and prod for an abcess...
She has never shown any particular mareish behaviour and believe me Ruby the warmblood is a hormonal mare, shes dragged me through a fence in one of her moments but the period of an-oestrous is soon so the problem may just vanish as suddenly as it started.
If I am calm and methodical hopefully I can pin point her exact problem instead of throwing everything at her at once, then I wont know. Whilst she has issues about being ridden she is a very happy field ornament..she has been living out until this weekend when the flooding we had in the area has left the fields rather sodden so to try and save them we have given them the sacrifice half acre and stabled them at night which they are very keen about and have to be tipped out in the morning and are waiting to return to in the evening! |
| Etoile |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 1:21:30 PM
The easyboot glove wides can suit hooves wider than long (we used them successfully with hooves 1cm wider than long), try shells that match the length measurement of the feet and have a rubber mallet handy to make sure that the toe is seated properly. If there's some flare the fit may not be precise, but you can use the power straps or look at the back country boots, which are based on the glove shell but easycare say that the design allows more flexibility on sizing/fit. |
| Callisto |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 12:47:26 PM
Our barefoot welsh x pony gets very bolshy on stoney going - plants and or bucks if we take him out without his easyboot trails on - his feet hurt and he is letting us know. No problem at all with his boots on. The other thing I immediately thought of from your original description was possibly sore ovaries, hope you work out what the problem is asap. |
| kath |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 12:20:30 PM
I would have her back checked and i would also wonder if she has sore ovaries. I have no experience of ulcers but it is another possibility. The fact that she shows discomfort when asked to go forwards would point to something physical to me, and i think you would know if it was laminitis again as she would show discomfort all the time, not just when she is being ridden.
Is her hoof sensitive to testers? Though its not a 100% positive test it should show if she is comfortable or not in her feet. |
| NatH |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:31:33 AM
Stomach ulcers.
Its such a balancing act trying to 'cut down' on a horses intake, yet feed them enough to keep their gut well.
If she is not showing further signs of laminitis please get her checked for stomach ulcers, I bet that's what it is. Good luck and please keep us posted. |
| Kerry Wilson |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 09:47:07 AM
I think she's trying to tell you it hurts! I look at your foot photo's and go ouch myself! her soles are going to feel every little stone imo. Some horses just are not cut out to go without shoes! I have a mare who has very sensitive feet on the roads/stony tracks, just the way she is!
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| Vik1 |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:56:29 PM
Not any chance of something like an abscess brewing in the hoof? I say that as my boy was reluctant to go forward. He would still go into trot but with a kick, smack with schooling whip, kick, even a bronc. Turned out he had an abscess in the wall of his hoof..did the whole poulticing thing and it came out..a whopper. Still wasnt right and farrier said there was alot of tracking but couldnt actually find anything. He was suspicious of another abscess in his heel or under his frog. When he pressed on bulb of his heel quite firmly storm was pulling his hoof away. I never thought much of it before as he always tries to snatch his hoof out your hand if you take too long. So I poulticed as advised for 2 days and was shocked at how much came out. He now has a 2 and half inch slice on his heel where it came out.
Praying it doesnt get reinfected or that the crack on his other hoof hasnt got the start of one. Ive noticed Im dragging him in from field and he tried to bite me twice when leading him, something he never does. Hes going forward ridden just now though. |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:37:58 PM
Sore feet could make the whole horse uncomfortable couldn't it as she'll be awkward and loading different parts of her unevenly? |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:35:55 PM
She had just been trimmed in these pics as I was trying to get the measurements to get her booted. My farrier has said that she doesn't have a very good concave foot at the moment and that this is common in horses that have had laminitis, hes been great as he hasn't offered to shoe her but I was surprised at how little toe their appeared to be in this picture.. she had been home about 2 weeks and in daily work up to that point. She is perhaps a little flat at times... |
| martha615 |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:21:43 PM
Hi again!
I just trim my own horses and am not a farrier or even trained to trim barefoot (big disclaimer!)...but it is good to see some photos anyway. Other people may have some interesting things to say, here is my 2 cents (and that is all it is!).
It is so difficult to tell the depth of what you are looking at on a screen. What I would love to see is how much depth there is to the sole, but I can't tell. Horses recovering from laminitis often have "flatter" feet than normal and that means you have to be more careful for a time. You'd want boots (Old Mac g2s are good for wide hooves, if that helps!) if you can get them for riding. Of course, eventually you won't necessarily need boots, but they are such a useful thing to have.
I do see what you mean about flare to the quarters, but that much shouldn't cause her any pain. You might just get a little chip there or something, but not to worry. Esme also gets a lot of flare at the quarters and I have no idea why....a bit of an oval shaped front hoof on Esme and perhaps that is all you have as well. No big deal.
The top photo looks as though she hasn't any hoof left at the very end of her toe, like either someone has rasped the horn all the way to through the white line or else she's dragging her toes a bit and wearing it down. It looks a little suspicious to me. She may be walking from toe to heel, which is wearing them down?
I can see some growth rings (so that would be your nice lush grass doing that) in the second photo down, but nothing huge. The bottom photo is odd in that it almost looks as though there are rasp marks on the whole of the wall of the hoof. Did anyone rasp her hoof from the coronet down? This used to be something farriers did, but then it was seen to cause problems.
Overall, the rasp marks and the lack of toe in the very top photo are the only odd things I see here. It is difficult for me to tell whether the heel is too high or not. When you rasp the heel down, it tends to appear as though it has been pushed back. You may find that the heel is too high on this horse technically (and again, I can't tell from the photos), but that you can't bring it down without making the horse uncomfortable. So, if you bring it down too fast on a horse with a very shallow sole you may get "toe-landing" and that would be why your toe was worn down so much.
Is she walking flat, or heel first? Or is she seen to "toe-land"? |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 9:10:33 PM
I hope so Kerry but that is exactly the reason that I dont want to shoe her and my farrier would rather she remain shoeless until next year so that all the foot structures have regrown ... I need to find a boot solution that works or just turn her away which then gives me an additional ration problem as she'll be doing less. I just dont want to be overlooking something else! |
| Kerry Wilson |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 8:58:20 PM
Don't you think she might just have more sensitive soles/feet since she had laminitis? Sounds like that to me. |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 8:24:25 PM
Thankyou all for your replies... she is such an easy going girl that I just know that their is something wrong, she hasn't bitten me since she was a bratty 2 year old!
I hadn't thought of a hormonal problem, it should disapear soon if that is the case..
I have thought that perhaps the feet needed some support but am struggling to get anything to fit, Im ordering a range of shells to try but her foot is wider than long. I do really need to try this as it would be cheaper than a veterinary investigation!!
I dont feed sugar beet this time of year..in the winter..should I avoid it? I am seriously wondering about ulcers but I think perhaps I could try some symptomatic treatment first without harm as this seems to be how alot of horses are giagnosed, perhaps bicarb/antacid or slippery elm.
Martha I would love your view on her feet if you don't mind. I think that they have too much flare and the heel bars should go further back?
[URL=http://s851.photobucket.com/user/suziQdogs/media/20130926_101141_zpse7793369.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s851.photobucket.com/user/suziQdogs/media/20130926_101210_zpsadbb3f8f.jpg.html] [/URL]
other foot!
[URL=http://s851.photobucket.com/user/suziQdogs/media/20130926_101341_zpse89a78db.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s851.photobucket.com/user/suziQdogs/media/20130926_101239_zps476b140a.jpg.html] [/URL] |
| Mrs DJ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 7:36:14 PM
My first thought was gut discomfort or ulcers.
Or, possibly hormonal, as joanna piana suggested.
Do you feed sugar beet? There are some now who think it could contribute to gut irritation. Can't comment on that personally, as I've never fed it.
If it is gut discomfort, some people say putting bicarb in the drinking water can make a huge difference. |
| pinkvboots |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 7:28:42 PM
I also thought ulcers might be worth speaking to your vet. |
| Ari |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 7:28:20 PM
SuziQ you know your lady and like you if Ari bit me I would be shocked and thinking he was in pain or discomfort and her reaction to leg aids adds to that. Have to say my boy would never bite but has made it clear he prefers other ways of removing mud than rubber curry comb.
It's hard to say not knowing how long she's been back home and what her turnout routine is. Could she have hurt herself in the field and be bruised?
Quite rightly you have managed her weight for her own good but for a young horse the very necessary restrictions could have been a challenge. I say this having experienced my 15yr old "angel" turn into the devil I found quite dangerous when on a strict diet for lami.
Have you tried hacking out with others to encourage her forward and give confidence an excitement in a group so going out is fun.
I almost daren't say this but could she be struggling with barefoot which explains perfect behaviour in hand but not so with a rider.
I am no expert and my thoughts are just to help, I am sure you have covered them anyway.
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| Etoile |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 7:24:48 PM
There's a video here about diagnosing ulcers with pressure points, might be worth a try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
The kicking when legs aids are applied, when is she doing it? If she's only doing it going away from home and it disappears when you're going back towards home then it may be that she's just seeing what she can get away with.
You say she's reluctant over stones, where as she moves happily over grass/tarmac, so she's probably feeling her feet and finding it a bit sore on stony ground. If stony ground is unavoidable for you out hacking that you might need to look into boots or shoes. |
| martha615 |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 6:49:04 PM
SuziQ, what a mystery! It really must be physical if she is happily moving forward in all other scenarios and doesn't mind you getting on or asking for transitions with your voice.
Barefoot horses can be a bit picky over stones -- that's pretty normal unless their pasture is very stony, too -- so if she is trotting on tarmac and other surfaces, it doesn't sound like a hoof problem.
Which leaves a great deal else to investigate...oh, these darn horses! |
| joanna_piana |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 6:42:47 PM
Could it be hormonal and related to sore ovaries? My mare doesn't like strong leg aids ever and when she is in season she will kick out if you put your leg on especially around the last season. |
| SuziQ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 6:24:32 PM
I breed Millie and we have had no grooming issues ever, I was very surprised and that has what prompted me to post. She is obviously not happy about something.
Millie was tested for Cushings and EMS and the tests came back negative and the vet and I felt that it was weight related, she was over weight without a doubt and I feel bad for allowing it to get to that stage but we have very rich pasture and last year all the rain kept the grass growing all through the year.
I don't have access to a school at the moment and was steering away from school work as I felt that we needed to develop our balance more so she has just been hacking locally with a little long lining in the field, her ground work is lovely she moves readily when I ask her, she is much better on the ground with me, very trusting!
She happily trots out, on tarmac as well as grass, just not on stoney ground. Her saddle and back were checked not long ago but I may ask my chiro to check her again. What she is objecting to specifically is leg pressure, I dont have a problem mounting and if she is listening to voice aids all good... (she does get distracted!)if I bring my legs into play she is lifting her back legs to kick. |
| Eeyore |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 6:04:33 PM
Maybe ulcers if her rations are strict good luck finding out what is bothering her |
| martha615 |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 4:39:38 PM
Sorry, that ***** was NOT a swear word in the way I was using it. What I meant was, move her ears forward in a happy expression, if you see what I mean!! |
| martha615 |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 4:20:49 PM
Hi SuziQ,
It is so difficult to know whether a horse is showing signs of a temperament problem or a physical problem or a learned behaviour, or a combination of things.
Did she have laminitis in all 4 hooves or just the front?
Is she always reluctant to move into trot, or only in the school, or hacking on her own? In other words, if another horse trots in front of her will she move into trot happily or does she always seem reluctant to move? If she is ALWAYS reluctant to move, even when in a safe environment and even when there are no humans asking her to move, then I'd suspect a physical problem.
Is she a bit backwards thinking when you are on the ground, too, for example during lunging? So, if you ask her to move off at walk, then trot, then canter, does she make a face, swish her tail and act like this is a big deal, or does she just do it nicely? If she does it nicely, perhaps you have one (or both of two things going on: she hasn't quite accepted a rider, even if she has been backed. She hasn't quite accepted her saddle (which she may not like for good reason). Perhaps, too, she is finding it hard to balance herself when ridden and so blames the rider (fair enough, we are unbalancing them, of course!).
Is there anything that makes her ***** her ears up a little and get more interested in moving forward -- like poles on the ground, etc? If so, she may be one of those horses that in the early days needs to be give a "focus" for her learning that makes sense to her, rather than boring ol' circles. Esme is like this. I use poles in the school. she loves to jump (I don't!) so I try to let her jump a little. She's certainly not the most forward thinking animal I've ever come across, but she is quite a meek horse in many ways and perhaps different to your mare...which is not to say she doesn't sometimes protest at my riding her (because she has done!) but that she loves being groomed and is very much a "follower" on the ground.
You say your horse bit you when grooming her. That may be a dominance thing or it may be a thousand other things....hard to say. I know that with my welsh D (also called millie!!) the people I bought her from used to have to tie her up short to groom and tack her up so she didn't bite them! When I got her, I thought she just didn't like being groomed. However, over time I discovered she actually thought I was unworthy of touching her in certain areas (typically the girth, chest and anywhere on the belly....and don't even THINK about the udder!) and that this biting behaviour disappeared as I become more interesting and challenged her to do more on the ground and when ridden. It wasn't that I was meaner to her, only that I kept her BUSY. She was being asked to think through hind quarter yields, forequarter yields, figures of 8, obstacle courses, going back 3 steps, then 20, until eventually, she decided I was worth my salt, though she always lives for the day when she can be in charge, lol! She doesn't bite anymore and that was quite a habit for her, so I am pleased. :)
Bottom line: horses get "sticky" for a variety of reasons...it is so hard to tell from a post. But lots of youngsters need a little convincing that they are not in charge. The kindest way I have found to convince them not to boss me around or threaten me is an awful lot of groundwork so that they back up, go sideways, forward, left, right, with the tiniest bit of pressure, and will maintain gait on a circle at walk/trot/canter without being continually reminded. I use Parelli (levels 1-3 are pretty easy to deal with) but you can find other sources of the same kind of thing. Good luck! I will be interested in others posts on this subject!
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| ali bali |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 4:16:15 PM
Is she pottery on her feet? Or stiff? Lami again though not acute? Have you had bloods taken for Cushings/EMS, she is young for it but lami last year was in autumn and you are having other possibly pain related issues now? Maybe a coincidence but with a free test (if that's still on offer) its certainly worth ruling out?
Could be something and nothing but if that behaviour is out of character then it sounds like she is trying to tell you something. Hope you manage to get to the bottom of it |
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