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T O P I C R E V I E W
Zareeba
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 09:57:46 AM People following threads about this will have been wondering why I have not come on here to defend myself. The reason is simple: while the case was ongoing it would have been improper for me to make statements about it (not that any such impropriety stops the RSPCA, who have been feeding the press with misinformation, distortions and inaccuracies). That, together with illness caused by all the stress of the trial and its aftermath (not to mention over a week with no internet access), has meant that this is the first real opportunity I have had to tell our side of the story.
We have been vilified in the press by means of biased, inaccurate and misleading reporting of our case. Of course, many people believe what they read in the press. I have made a complaint to the Press Complaints Commission, because such reporting is in breach of their Editors’ Code of Practice. Apart from one reference to our friend Stuart, who by his own admission knows little about horses, I have been able to find no mention in the press (perhaps someone can enlighten me if they have seen such a mention) of other witnesses on our side, for example, of our expert witness, Colin Vogel, our vet, Graham Russ, or our farrier, Neil Jackson, yet all these people gave evidence in our defence (Graham Russ and Neil Jackson have attended to our horses regularly for the past 22 years). Why, then, has their evidence not been reported? There is only one reason: bias. This is a form of trial by media which ignores the most basic principle of British law – the presumption of innocence.
In order to keep this brief, I have posted my statement on one of my websites. Anyone interested in the truth rather than misinformation, distortions and outright lies, please click on the link below.
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:30:42 PM As far as I am concerned there is absolutely "NO" excuse for the ill-treatment of these horses WHAT SO EVER. *****DISGUSTING***** Lesley have the decency to be ashamed of yourself!!!
glo
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 12:27:41 PM The reason I posted that little story up was, while from the number of comments, is that we are not perfect. I have has horses on loan from this site that have been thinner then that old mare and the owner insisted that she had been fed 3 times a day, I have had one from this site that had feet 8in long and again very thin, I could go on!! its not to make you feel guilty, most of us would know someone that had done 1 of the things that the Skippers have done.
I don't know the Skippers but I can see both sides, I am open minded and I will not judge.
To all that do, honestly look after your horses with every thing up to date, well-done but for every 1 I bet there are 2 or 3 that don't.
Vik1
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 11:22:56 AM I think that is part of the problem here.. Yes we have all made mistakes at some point. yes we all maybe could of done something better in hindsight but going by the statement the skippers has made they do not think they did anything wrong and that the rspca was barking up the wrong tree in this instance. I lost my old pony and put distance between myself and my girl without realising it. I still mucked out, gave a her a quick brush, fed her but I neglected to realise she was slowly losing weight. It wasnt purposeful. It wasnt until someone pointed it out to me and I felt like a terrible owner. I am the first to admit I could of and should of done better. You need to accept wrong doing (whether it happened without realising or purposeful) in order to improve. Its unfortunate and tragic it got the stage it did here. My blame still lies with people who didnt tell them to get their finger out, although I get the impression it would of fallen on deaf ears.
basbob
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 11:20:39 AM Sorry Glo, I disagree, care for my horses means clean beds, farrier, vet when needed, etc.. I don't do without the basics because I can't be bothered, tired, ill, whatever.
It isn't a lot to ask. If a person can't do the minimum care they really shouldn't have animals.
borleybird
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:43:19 AM Thanks for your Post glo. I have been reading this thread and wanted to post but could think of nothing constructive to write. Yes I am shocked by the situation and very angry but my feelings can't change the past. However, your post got me thinking that rather than dwelling in these negative feelings, it would be much more beneficial if I focused on positive things including offering moral support to my mate who is struggling as well as mucking out for her. I'm not perfect and life is a learning curve but by reflecting on my past mistakes, I grow and learn. I'm always concerned when I start thinking I know everything, so thank you for bump back down to earth.
Eeyore
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:43:18 AM I have to agree with JudithS, Kazzy, Pasha and LadyLuck1!
What you have described Glo is basic care, of course I can answer yes to all of those questions! They are the basics.
LadyLuck1
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:11:31 AM What you mentioned Glo is basic care and in my opinion if someone cant provide those then they shouldn't have a horse. I would rather call the vet out and pay the £50 call out charge just to be told I'm worrying about nothing rather than let my horse suffer. I work two jobs to keep Kirstie. There are no excuses for the way the horses were treated and I cant understand how anyone can make excuses or defend her. Mary
Pasha
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:45:18 AM Glo I am sure your post was kindly meant but it doesn't sit well with me at all, especially as you are referencing Jesus and the bible! I am not a Christian (I am a nothing actually) but that is a whole other argument! However, I can categorically state YES to each of your questions and agree with Judith, that this is the LEAST owners should provide!
I have had the mickey taken out at me for the frequency of my vet visits/ farrier/ physio and for 'throwing money away' to get to the bottom of an issue! Do I care? Hell no! I have been brought up to treat my horses as part of my family! I believe a have a duty of care towards Shesky as if he were my child and I have and will do everything possible, regardless of cost, to ensue he has the most happiest and fulfilling life he can, as I am sure most members of AL do!
Kazzy
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:33:55 AM Agree with Judith S. If we cannot provide those for our horses and other animals then I suggest people sell them so other people can give them the basics in life that they need.
Janet
Paresh
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:32:20 AM
Originally posted by Kazzy
There is a huge difference between what you put Glo and what the Skipper actually did!!
Yes, I have been known not to skip out in the morning if I was late for work but I always and I mean always made sure at night my horses went to bed on a clean bed and I always have said if I wouldnt sleep on it then neither do my horses!
I have the vet out when my vet is needed, I have never left my horses to suffer to see if *it would go away* I took on my horses, they didnt take me on and its my responsibilty to give them the best possible life I can. I go without sometimes to make sure my horses are well fed, rugged up and happy and pain free.
My hubby always said *why do I think nothing of spending £200 on a rug for one of the horses yet I go to the sales for my stuff*!!!!
Big difference Glo in how the Skippers managed their horses to what you have put.
Janet
well said Janet! totaly different perspective Glo. Are you really trying to make excuses for her? and trying to make us feel guilty? sorry its not working on me, I would NEVER allow any of my horses to get into that condition.
cmj
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:31:11 AM Well I've just "thrown a stone" Amazon's way telling them I am disgusted they are selling books by this person, and why.
Judith S
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:30:17 AM Glo, what you have described are basically the essentials that every horse we look after is entitled to and the very least we should provide for them.
Callisto
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:53:17 AM Well said Glo. I was shocked by the photos, and I do not condone what happened in any way, but I have known a couple of cases where good knowledgeable and loving horse owners have been unable to cope through age or illness and didn't know where to turn for help, having been proudly independent for years (and believe it or not a lot of older people are not on the Internet and don't see many outside people). It is easy to be critical, it would be more useful to all concerned to try and make sure this sort of tragic situation is avoided.
Kazzy
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:50:07 AM There is a huge difference between what you put Glo and what the Skipper actually did!!
Yes, I have been known not to skip out in the morning if I was late for work but I always and I mean always made sure at night my horses went to bed on a clean bed and I always have said if I wouldnt sleep on it then neither do my horses!
I have the vet out when my vet is needed, I have never left my horses to suffer to see if *it would go away* I took on my horses, they didnt take me on and its my responsibilty to give them the best possible life I can. I go without sometimes to make sure my horses are well fed, rugged up and happy and pain free.
My hubby always said *why do I think nothing of spending £200 on a rug for one of the horses yet I go to the sales for my stuff*!!!!
Big difference Glo in how the Skippers managed their horses to what you have put.
Janet
sasha
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:39:44 AM
There is 'Not caring' as you put it Glo! Then there is 'downright neglect'and the neglect had been going on for a long time.
glo
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:25:55 AM I have a little storey to tell!!!! from the bible!!!
Jesus came upon a group of men, he ask what they were doing, "we are going to stone this woman for adultery", Jesus then said "he that is without sin cast the first stone" when he look up the group of men had dispersed, Jesus then said to the woman "go and sin no more"
Are we guilty of the sin that the Skipper's have committed,now and in the past!!!
Are all our horses feet trimmed every 6-8 weeks or is once a blue moon enough! Are all our horses kept on clean dry fresh bedding or only cleaned whenever! Are all our horses seeing the vet when needed, or do you leave it a day or more and hope it will go away! Are all our old friends PTS when there quality of live goes down hill or do we keep then for ourselves! Are all our horses wormed, fed and looked after in a kind and caring way or do we think they will look better in the spring! Are all our horses seeing the horse dentist each 6 to 12 months or never!
We are all guilty at some time in our lives of not doing the right thing, I am sure what happened was a combination of lots of happenings, I have seen a lot worse,and I hope I will not see it again, but I in the past have been guilty of not caring 100% for my horses , so I will not cast a stone!!!
gossy
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 9:02:03 PM Goldenmane, couldnt agree more, ive done the same a week after my hysterectomy, im currently nursing a broken toe but still look after all my horses, if i could no longer due to health or circumstances i would ask for help!! no horse deserves such awful treatment.
debs
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 8:07:29 PM How revolting. Poor poor horses.
basbob
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 7:21:14 PM And none of us are authors making a living writing about horse welfare. That is the worst part!
Goldenmane
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 6:29:37 PM Now I'm back on line and able to comment I can only say I've had horses that I adore and still grieve for, put to sleep because of old age, laminitis and ill health. I have also mucked out,as CMJ has said, with morning sickness, slipped discs and begged help when I was in hospital, and received it. No excuse. Shameful.
FullCircle
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:23:45 PM You know something, I had the most horrible feelings of guilt when my mare had Lami, like it may have been my fault (vet reckons it was hormone induced). She was a strapping Welsh Cob mare and yes, as it was May, she was perhas carrying a bit more weight than she ought to. But I coudln't help but feel like it was down to me to keep her right and I failed her.
I think if I had three horses at one time with Laminitis, I would have surrendered them - or begged someone to help me as I would have been convinced I was killing them on my own!
FullCircle
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:20:58 PM Yes, I found wood pellets really good as they almost acted like filler in teh foot to take pressure off - sort of like frog supports. But I agree, sure don't want to go thru THAT again!
Pasha
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:16:31 PM Yes I think we are all on the same page and it is in fact Ms Skipper who is confused by the term Deep Litter!
Pasha liked to dig a hole and stand in it and to be honest I let him as I thought he must be more comfortable like that?
God forbid I ever have to deal with Lami again, but if I do I think I will try the wood pellets as they do bunch up in the feet really well and seem to stay put better than shavings xxx
FullCircle
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:05:39 PM
Originally posted by Pasha
I am sorry to disagree but here is a direct quote from the Laminitis Trust website:
"The best bedding is deep shavings, at least 18 inches deep, covering the whole floor area"
Deep shavings is not deep litter unless we are confused by terms?
I also have a slightly different opinion to what deep litter should be to most people anyway - I think deep litter should be removing all dropping and wet patches, but not actually forking the whole bed up (similar to how you muck out wood pellets).
I actually dont' think you are disagreeing with me. I certainly have bedded my horse in her VERY large stable with 15 bags of shavings over rubber matts to give her 18inches of deep shavings. Perhaps my use of the words deep litter made you think I was referring to poo and wee not lifted. Personally, I prefer to do as you describe - lift the poos and the worst of the wet. However, I do find that the very base almost needs to stay down in a lami bed simply so that the shavings don't shift so easily. I did find that my mare's favorite game was to stand at the stable door and run backwards now and again and would create a massive mountain of shavings behind her and stand on bare rubber mat at the door. Only way to prevent that was to actually use soaked wood pellets and leave them pretty soggy at the door way - and then add dry shavings to the top.
Lesley have the decency to be ashamed of yourself!!!
, so I will not cast a stone!!! 
Yes I think we are all on the same page and it is in fact Ms Skipper who is confused by the term Deep Litter!