| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kes |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 7:33:28 PM
Last weekend I noticed Kes was very slightly unsound in trot only on his nearhind. When I picked his feet out prior to the vet arriving on Wednesday there was a splurge of black gunk, I presumed (wrongly) that it was a burst abscess. The vet applied pressure in various areas and ruled out an abscess but was leaning towards either a bacterial infection of the frog or thrush. Only it's worse than that, the infection is right in and under his frog and the vet has already given me the worse case scenario of having x-rays to check for pedal bone damage. The vet cleaned and dressed his foot and he's now on 24hr box rest. I had the farrier the next morning and my vet had spoken to him the night before about Kes's foot. My farrier cut away a lot of frog, I then re-cleaned his foot and dressed it again. The dressings have to be changed every 2 days and the idea is to dry his foot right out to kill any bacteria or thrush. His field is dry and I pick his feet out regularly but not daily, I always remove mud though and dry his feet/lower leg.
Can anyone suggest 1) a good foot disinfectant to apply regularly to stop this happening again 2) any good products to dry his frog out.
Fingers crossed he doesn't have any damage to his pedal bone, thanks everyone, Carole. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kes |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 7:17:15 PM
Thanks Triskar  |
| Triskar |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 6:02:04 PM
We use a copper sulphate solution. Copper sulphate is cheap to buy on eBay - we mix it up with water in an empty spray bottle and spray it into the frog cleft when we pick out feet. We had a thoroughbred with dreadful thrush which was cured by mixing copper sulphate crystals with impression material (eBay or Amazon), packing it into the foot and using a hoof boot on top once the impression material had set. After 5 days the thrush was completely gone and the frog was regenerating. A daily spray with the copper sulphate solution is all it needs now. The other horses get a weekly spray just to be on the safe side! Be careful with the copper sulphate solution - it is highly poisonous to fish, but it is a brilliant fungicide. We found this cure from googling the condition and it was on an American farriery site. |
| Kes |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 5:32:09 PM
Hi Sarah, he seems back to normal now so he's in overnight then back out in his usual field in the morning, I'm expecting fireworks!!! He will continue to be stabled overnight though with the hope of staying on top of his feet (?). I've got some hoof & frog disinfectant so have been merrily painting away with that. His turnout is 7.30-3.30 so should be enough to exercise him but also allow me to keep his feet in good order :) |
| connormum |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 10:24:45 PM
Hi Carole, how is it/he today? Sarah |
| Kes |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 6:42:55 PM
Oh yes, the nightmare of removing duct/gaffer tape 24/48 hours after you put it on with 'it must not come off' security.......I actually managed to snap a pair of blunt ended scissors after just 3 dressing changes!! |
| pinkvboots |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 10:27:43 AM
Keratex Frog disinfectant is really good but very strong only need to use it every other day, also Daktarin athletes foot spray will help kill the fungus and dry it out, tip for cutting off duct tape is use a razor blade it is the only way to get it off easily. |
| Kes |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 1:25:56 PM
Hi Judith S, thrush which is the Candida sp is definitely fungal. If you view it down a microscope the cells are much larger and have vastly differently morphology to bacteria which can be 'roughly' divided into 2 groups, bacilli and cocci. I guess they say bacterial because most people think of fungi as toast stools or something furry that grows on dodgy cheese!!
As for swabbing anything you are exactly right; a swab would tell you bacterial or fungal, what types and then there is antibiotic sensitivity too so the vet knows what antibiotics to give. |
| Judith S |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 12:55:47 PM
Originally posted by Kes
ok, it seems I may have opened a few queries with my questions. Thrush is fungal (Candida) which makes it completely different to bacteria in its morphology, and again to virus's. Bacteria that are anaerobic won't die with oxygen, they just thrive better in depleted oxygen habitats. For example if someone/equine had a badly infected limb with anaerobic bacteria simply opening it to the air wouldn't kill the infection (there would most likely be a mixed growth anyway), the bacteria would still survive, their ability to reproduce would be compromised though.
jo78, I hope that isn't the case. I was told Kes was prone to mud fever as he has some pink skin on his pasterns, in 6 months of ownership I've seen one tiny spot of it, maybe I have just been lucky so far.
I am doing another dressing change at the end of tomorrow and if the dressing is damp I am going to leave it off. He is in and is mucked out twice daily and on a deep shavings bed. It was encouraging seeing him trot round sound today though, although that may have been enthusiasm from being shut in for 3 days!!
Now I'm confused, if you google 'horse thrush' most of the answers seem to say it is an anaerobic bacterial infection, with the occasional mention of fungal.
Is it a case of there being more than one type of infection and you need to get a swab tested to decide which type you are dealing with? |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 12:36:21 PM
Barrier make a good disinfectant which clears up mild thrush quickly |
| Kes |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 11:40:51 PM
ok, it seems I may have opened a few queries with my questions. Thrush is fungal (Candida) which makes it completely different to bacteria in its morphology, and again to virus's. Bacteria that are anaerobic won't die with oxygen, they just thrive better in depleted oxygen habitats. For example if someone/equine had a badly infected limb with anaerobic bacteria simply opening it to the air wouldn't kill the infection (there would most likely be a mixed growth anyway), the bacteria would still survive, their ability to reproduce would be compromised though.
jo78, I hope that isn't the case. I was told Kes was prone to mud fever as he has some pink skin on his pasterns, in 6 months of ownership I've seen one tiny spot of it, maybe I have just been lucky so far.
I am doing another dressing change at the end of tomorrow and if the dressing is damp I am going to leave it off. He is in and is mucked out twice daily and on a deep shavings bed. It was encouraging seeing him trot round sound today though, although that may have been enthusiasm from being shut in for 3 days!!
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| jo78 |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 9:12:29 PM
My boy too suffers from thrush, only in one foot! My farrier told me (as i was using hydrogen peroxide) that this only cleans it and doesnt fight the infection. He told me to clean it with a diluted Detol solution, then spray with Iodine, seems to have worked a treat. Dont envy you as this seems to be once they have had it they will more than likely suffer with it again x
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| Judith S |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 8:19:36 PM
There seems to be conflicting opinion as to whether thrush is bacterial or fungal, but the main thing seems to be that it is anaerobic so oxygen is it's worst enemy. It would therefore seem counter-productive to seal the hoof in a plastic bag and deprive it of oxygen. |
| Kes |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 6:36:46 PM
Ok, lots more advice but does leave me in a quandary with what to do. I did a dressing change this morning and although the dressing felt slightly damp to me there was no gunk and the smell is far healthier. As I trained to be a veterinary pathologist specialising in bacteriology I have a very good nose for anything bad. Obviously thrush is fungal but bacteria is different, there are strains of bacteria that not only don't need oxygen (anaerobes) but thrive in an oxygen reduced environment. Makes it very difficult to know what to next.
Prior to Kes getting this infection he was on 24hr turnout and his diet is low in sugars and starches.
When I went back down late this afternoon he looked very miffed being stuck in so thought we would have a wander about on the 12ft line...........several piaffes later we returned, that horse in NOT lame!!! |
| Stormy |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 6:22:22 PM
Sorry Callisto by sweat i actually meant a kind of condensation from the warmth that builds up from the hoof area, particularly when infection present when covered in plastic - increased humidity in the hoof area causing increased dampness! Sorry wrong choice of words! it was late when i wrote last post!  |
| Gerri |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 5:38:04 PM
I always used to use 10 percent peroxide to bathe the area and it always worked a tip from an elserly man many years ago |
| Eeyore |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 11:44:32 AM
Thankfully this is something I've never had to deal with (touching wood frantically as I say that, don't want to tempt fate!).
I'm using something called Silverfeet on my horses hooves at the moment, google it and see what you think. I think it's brilliant stuff.
Keratex hoof and leg scrub has also helped me get rid of mud fever, it contains byotrol (think that's how you spell it) which is a new concept in killing bacteria. You can use it on their hooves as well.
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| Callisto |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 11:26:10 AM
The reason I used babies nappies is because they are designed to wick moisture away from babies' bottoms, so they should wick moisture away from the sole (unless of course moisture gets in from the outside - hence the plastic bag). I am not aware that horses' hooves sweat (quite happy to be told they do if somebody knows different ), so the nappy should 'dry' the sole rather make it moist. I am assuming that wearing dressings is only for the short term? |
| Judith S |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 10:59:51 AM
We were talking to our farrier about this recently and he says he only sees thrush on shod horses because the frog action is compromised as loosefur states above, we have never seen it on any of ours - but they are all barefoot.
I would also query keeping dressings on as they provide the ideal damp environment for bacteria to thrive.
If possible get the shoes off and give the frog a chance to work properly. Can you turnout onto a yard? |
| loosefur |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 09:44:44 AM
Apple cider vinegar is also good to kill off bacteria but you don't just want to be treating the symptoms you need to look at the cause too. The bacteria/infection that we know as thrush can only infect an already weakened frog. A healthy frog doesn't get thrush. Causes for a weak frog are lack of blood supply/circulation and inflammation of the corium that feeds the frog. Two things then - you need to increase the blood supply to the frog which comes from movement/exercise. Unfortunately for a good proportion of shod horses the frog is held off the ground so gets so pumping/stimulation and therefore gets atrophied which leaves it vulernable to infection. Also connected to this time of year horses get less turn out and exercise so the frog/foot gets less movement and therefore less circulation. If shod the farrier needs to ensure that the frog touches the floor. Secondly the inflammation of the corium which is usually diet related, as in too much sugar/starch in the diet. Thrush thrives in wet, mild conditions for two reasons. The first is that wet mild conditions usually mean lush, sweet grass. The same conditions are also the perfect breeding ground for the bacteria which attack the frogs. Double whammy. Alternatively this time of year horses are brough in to stand in stables, on bedding that they poo and wee on - again perfect breeding ground for bacteria whilst at the same time tend to have their feed rations upped... all those molassed feeds and also as they are stabled for longer periods they get given those blocks of almost pure sugar to eat... otherwise known as horse licks!
So to prevent thrush ensure the horse has a low sugar/starch diet and plenty of exercise. If thrush does occur then treat with one of the topical treatments (though I would never use hyrogen peroxide as it will kill off healthy tissue as well as damaged tissue).
I would also be slightly wary of keeping a dressing on for extended periods. Bacteria thrive in warm, humid, oxygen deprived environments - which is why the vet/farrier cut away a lot of frog. But if you then just cover it over with dressing/bandage then you are recreating the same enironment! Damaged tissue needs oxygen to heal but you do need to keep it dry and clean if you can. Difficult! but I am sure your vet will get that dressing off as soon as he can |
| Kes |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 09:29:35 AM
Thank you everyone, am doing a dressing change today so should see/smell how it going. My biggest downfall so far is possibly using a little too much gaffer tape - how do you get it off!!! |
| LIV |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 09:24:29 AM
I'm using Swan Anti-bac for a similar problem. My farrier recommended it so will see what he thinks when he removes the shoes next week. |
| shah |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 08:37:11 AM
Hydrogen peroxide hurts them so I personally would never use it. I've tried Stockholm tar, Milton, solutions4feet and others, none worked. The best for me was the Pioneer herbal clean and paste. Wash and apply every day to start with, then as the thrush disappears you need to do less.
Daily salt water rinse and athletes foot spray are also good if the thrush is minor.
Cleantrax is also very good but a bit of a kerfuffle to do as arabs tend to think of the blue boots as monsters... |
| Nashiba |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 08:13:27 AM
Our old stallion suffers quite badly with thrush too-real smelly feet!!
Hydrogen peroxide for us too-works a treat. |
| Stormy |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 01:35:02 AM
You might find the plastic bag will make the foot sweat and smell terrible - i find duct / gaffer tape does same! Personally use i co-hesive bandages and they do some great hoof boots now that i found worked wonders when i needed to poultice my mares foot but she wouldn't be stabled so she was out 24/7. Oh and the hydrogen peroxide / gentian violet idea is an old remedy but works absolute wonders for thrush! |
| Callisto |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 12:33:51 AM
I used to apply diluted hydrogen peroxide when one of mine had this problem - I used a large (needleless) syringe to get it into all the fissures - worked well for us. Then to keep it clean and dry used a newborn baby disposable nappy and duct tape to reenforce the outer/keep it in place - you can get really quick at applying them - good luck and hope you get it sorted quickly.
ETA You could give it a good coating of atheletes foot powder before applying the dressing to help clear it up
Oh and if he's being turned out then add a sturdy plastic bag over the nappy before the duct tape to keep it all dry. |
