| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| numbbum |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 10:21:43 AM
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Pasch |
Posted - 17 Sep 2011 : 3:57:48 PM
Zan,you took the words out of my mouth.I've been to shows I think 3 or 4 times,I don't go anymore.
Vik1,please do go once,the racket(and what a racket!) is not only to get the prancy trot,but also the wide open eyes,flared nostrils,veins showing,snorting and so on.Your friend has a good definition there IMO. |
| Tzarina |
Posted - 17 Sep 2011 : 11:57:19 AM
All the arabs I have ever had have never had their 'senses heightened' to get a big prancy trot out of them, for the simple reason that is what arabs do naturally - they dance, with their big elevated trot.
I know where i stand on this debate and the people who know I agree with their comments will realise who they are, so I am not going to write anything further, hence me keeping so quiet so far.
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| Vik1 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 9:16:41 PM
Ive never been so I cant make too much of a comment about it but imo..I can understand crowds cheering on the horses as a way of support and if the horse reacted in an 'excited' way and went all prancy then so be it. However I would not be happy at people making a racket with the intent of making the horses senses heightened just so they show the prancy trot. I dont think a big prancy trot is really needed for an arab to show how beautiful it is.
Ive seen at shows people waving bags behind welshies to make them move and majority of my showing friends just snort down their noses at them. If at arab shows this is what happens, tbh this is one reason why 'other' showing people dont like arab showing. In fact a strong word a friend of my uses to describe arab showing is 'grotesque'. Perhaps things like this does need to change to try to get non arab people to become more supportive of the breed. |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 8:58:26 PM
There were horses there which were a delight to watch
I have a mental picture of my favourites like many people.Some of the ridden work was exceptional and bodes well for the future .
The winning mare ,the dapple mare with the fluid action ,a young stallion with really great paces ,and some of the horsemanship was also notable .
By the way is Seamus on steroids?
There are always negatives but lets remember a good show overall |
| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 4:25:01 PM
I know perfectly what is being said, and I don't see inhand showing ruining the breed. But whatever I think others will think differently. I personally don't want the old fashioned show pony style of showing to come back. That is just as detrimental I think.
All horses are individuals, and whatever you do with them some will enjoy it, some will not, I have horses here that do not enjoy showing, whether it be the modern style or local show pony style, so they don't go.
Most people, and I do repeat MOST have different goals in mind for their horse/s. This is great as the old saying 'horses for courses', if individuals are abusive to their horses they should be punished accordingly in whatever sphere of leisure or competition they enjoy, but I don't see why a style (that a lot of people do like) should be stopped because of a minority.
I for example did not like hunting, but I never tried to stop others from doing it. |
| Kazzy |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 4:09:56 PM
Some people dont even go and moan about it Pashon!! I went and saw a few frightened horses but all in all the majority were not frightened. But you can go to any show Arab or not and see horses and ponies that are frightened of the show scene. By that it deosnt mean to say its ok for horses to be frightened its not.
How anyone can judge what went on from one video is beyond me.
If you feel that bad about it go next year and complain thats what I say instead of coming on forums, not just this one but others aswell and moaning about it.
Janet |
| Zan |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 4:06:16 PM
Pashon, actually, I don't go to these shows precisely because of this kind of behaviour. I think you are missing the point which is that those of us who hate this type of showing feel that OUR beloved breed as a whole suffers as a result of the ownership of in-hand showing being taken over by this.
It's not a matter of " don't go if you don't like it" because I hate the fact that it is going on!!
As for abuse going on elsewhere--Pasch so rightly said "Of course there is abuse in every discipline,that's not what we are talking about here." Two wrongs don't make a right, and there will be, and have been, other threads on all sorts of abuse, and that is the time and place to discuss that, not here, which is a thread specifically about in-hand showing of Arabians.
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| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 3:40:21 PM
Ever heard of crowd excitement?? And yes it is also to get the horses more excited, in my experience frightened horses don't prance round with their tails over their backs, they clamp them down and run. My horses are trained to respond, not flee in terror!
As said before, why oh why do people go to these places every year then moan about it. And abuse is abuse if actually evident, or does no one care about other breeds?? |
| Pasch |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 11:15:35 PM
If horses are so used to noise,then what is all the shouting and stampeding about?I thought that was so the horses got more excited/scared so they would have more of that arab look and movements.
Of course there is abuse in every discipline,that's not what we are talking about here. |
| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 4:33:52 PM
People are now breeding horses for the in hand ring, and breeding them for ridden, a few do both, its not the horses faults that no one rides them when old enough, that doesnt mean they arent capable of it!
My horses stand in their stables quietly munching hay, go in the ring with their tails up shouting Woohoo and then go back to their stables and munch hay, hardly scared, abused and hyped you think?
Those that don't like it, don't go, thats my opinion. I for one do not want to see arabians doing a show pony trot round the ring, nor do I want to see the audience sitting there afraid to speak (so as not to upset said show pony who has never got used to any noise).
My horses are desensitised to loud noises and music from an early age and none of mine now would take any notice if you played the 1812 overture at full volume!
Having said that I do not condone abuse, but showing and abuse are not exclusively the same thing. There is abuse in all horsey walks of life, top showjumpers rapped, dressage horses with chins strapped to chests, show ponies hideously overweight (its still abuse) and for that matter ridden ARABS hideously overweight.
As I said before this video shows a young filly trotting out quite nicely, she does fling her head a little whether this is expecting to be tugged or just excitement its difficult to tell, but if anyone looks at the rest of the videos most do not.
Anyways this same old argument will continue every year, especially after the UKIAHS. And so it will next year.
Delyth, I have only used 3 handlers, and they would be the ones to do it again if any of mine go showing. I would not use someone just to get a rosette the same as you! |
| Delyth |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 3:56:39 PM
To be fair I can't see the filly is being abused. I don't like the flinging back of the head which just 'suggest' she's expecting to be tugged for running on. She trots out quite nicely so if she were frightened she wouldn't.
However I have shown at the highest level numerous times and in the past have really enjoyed it. We've taken the good with the bad and had some fantastic results. I would never put my horses under any unjust pressure for the sake of a rosette though. The same horses come home to me and I have to look after them so I couldn't and wouldn't do it. Therefore I have only ever used 2 handlers. If I were to pick a European handler there is only one I'd consider.
How do you change things.....only the owners can do that, they have the power but do they want that misplaced glory too much !! |
| Pasch |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 2:48:40 PM
Zan,I couldn't have said it better. |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 12:24:59 PM
A lot of the good perfrmers in Ridden have been successful in-hand over the last 10 years . |
| Zan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 09:35:13 AM
How do you suggest we sort it out Stuart-- because I would love to be able to? Sadly, in hand Arabian showing is going exactly the same way as dog showing, an analogy you have already made. It started with a few following US "fashions", and when they weren't immediately stopped by the AHS, as they should have been, others copied them, then newbies came into it and thought this is how it is done, and before you know it, it is the norm, and anyone trying to show traditionally can't because of the ridiculous whooped up atmosphere. The end result is two camps. This is very bad for the Arabian horse--as in pedigree dogs there is a distinction between those who are true to the original standard and can do a job of work, and those who are fit for nothing but twirling about on the end of a string. I know some will hold up examples of good horses who have done well in hand and then gone on to do well ridden, but they are getting fewer, and the fact is--this should be the norm, not the exception!! In-hand showing should be a preparation for the horse's ridden life, not an end in itself.All that this kind of in hand showing prepares a horse for is fulfilling the stereotype of a flighty, unmanageable nutty Arab.
I think this video--innocently posted by poor Numbum--is very telling. If you look at the still photo at the start before you click play, if you didn't know that this was going to be a video of a horse show you would assume it was going to be a video of a group of people standing around watching a frightened horse being abused. Lovely. |
| stuart |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 11:43:47 PM
Chuckling....... as I listen to the 'Ether' wind whistling - and watch the cyber 'tumbleweed' rolling across the 'pooters' screen..........
Nuff said........ I guess!!
As you were peeps...... |
| stuart |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 5:22:19 PM
It is certainly food for thought....... all of this rhetoric.........
I recently read a most insightful post - at our National Show the Ridden is pushed to a side ring.... and the serious doing horses i.e Showjumping & Dressage are pushed further afield..... out of sight of the main arenas.
The question offered forward was this.......
"Unfortunately there is a self-perpetuating cycle in the "main ring" (and what other breed has the in-hand showing of adults centre stage with ridden out the side and dressage and showjumping hidden away!) whereby no-one yet has successfully revealed that the emperor has no clothes"
Fabulous description... "the Emperor has no clothes"!!! - it outlines how the Arabian is seen... embarrasing!!
Wake up United Kingdom - many of us for reasons real or imagined take issue with one another -(My we are sooooo competitive!!) why is whooping up a potentially useful Arabian Horse productive?? Let's face it.. if it is 'not' sold abroad for your years mortgage - said ponio is going to somebody else - if you are not of a mind to keep and enjoy the ups and downs of Ownership.
My question is this.......
Where is the middle ground of presenting an 'in hand' Arabian without excess stress..... and looking like Fools to the rest of our Countrymen who utilise their horses beyond 'Wary on a sparkly lead rope'?
Opinions both pro and contra welcome!
As someone had written.....
"Same old comments every year."
Is it not time to sort it?? |
| Pasch |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 10:08:48 PM
Kazzy,I was not making assumptions and I didn't go to Towerlands but to other shows.The first time I went to Verona fair I couldn't wait to see the in hand shows,but was shocked by what I saw.I was close to the warm up area and the handlers were ALL scaring those poor fillies and colts to death.
Zan,agree with you as always,and Stuart,apparently yes,many honestly think the horses prefer this! |
| Callisto |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 7:23:54 PM
I just find it completely counter-intuitive - you spend your whole time being calm, quiet and steady around horses because they are flight animals, so why would you want to do this? |
| stuart |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 5:26:12 PM
Bleedin' stroll on........ the owners/handlers love it - the horses would be just as happy in a quieter style............ and would transfer to ridden & real life far easier, rendering them far more useful, unimpeached by hype!!
Experience may teach a horse to tolerate...... and 'Volume' cause them to 'rise'....... but really - is anybody honestly........ going to offer forward that the horses prefer this????
C'mon - after showing so many are outed from showing to be ridden as they are over exposed/not deemed good/successful enough to show further either nationally or internationally!!
Are the new and possibly inexperienced owners made aware.........?
How has this become acceptable?
Look what happened when dog showing was exposed.....
Be careful what you wish for folks!
There is a better way, that we should strive for - at least here in the UK,we have always led as a nation - why are we now following? |
| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 5:02:32 PM
LOL @ Tracey - 'your gelding has a huge personality' - hmmm I could have throttled him as a stallion!!
Rusleem, Vodolej and Hakka absolutely adore/d the hype of the inhand ring, on the other hand Rusleem as everyone knows could tone it down for ridden showing, Hakka definately could NOT!! He hated 'quiet and well behaved' that wasnt in his vocabulary!
Thanks for the video clips, and would love to see more if anyone has any.  |
| Zan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 4:55:16 PM
Whether some love it---and they no doubt have had kind handlers --or not is immaterial if some hate it. It should not be necessary to hype up horses like this, to the point where some of them are frightened, to get them to show themselves. A really good mover will show beautifully when shown traditionally, and if this was the case there would then be a level playing field for them all to show what they are really like, in a nice calm atmosphere with calm responsive horses.I, and many others, hate modern in-hand Arab showing because I think it demeans the horses, and detracts from their beauty. |
| abz87 |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 4:41:35 PM
Hear Haer tracey. My boy was also shown successfully inhand gaining silver medal at towerlands etc yet made the transition into the ridden ring no problem, qualifing for HOYS with me a novice |
| loulou |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 1:22:17 PM
Same old comments every year. Some people can't get their heads round the fact that the majority if these horses actually love it. My five year old mare competed for the first time at Towerlands and rose to the occasion being placed top ten in a very strong mare class, there was a lot of noise, yes but certainly no fear in sight and she loved the chance to show off. And the next day my 16 year old daughter took her out for a gentle hack - so sorry, but in hand horses can be sane ridden horses and I am lucky to be blessed with two.
We can all have our own views and opinions but why can't people accept that some people enjoy competing their horses at these shows and some don't. My gelding has been to Europe and he certainly is not shy of people and has a huge personality and I know of many others that are the same. Like all disciplines there is the small minority that do certain things behind closed doors but please do not tar everyone with the same brush.
Traceyx |
| Caro23 |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 1:01:00 PM
Not my cup of tea at all - would prefer to see a calm relaxed horse any day |
| Kazzy |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 11:37:28 AM
Yes, thabnk you for the clip, its great!! I took some but on my phone and they havent come out to well, well due to the fact i am totally rubbish at taking videos and photos
I went and yes there were some young horses that seemed scared but at the same time there are a lot of horse that love the noise and perform better the more people shout. I think its upto the individual if the take their horse or not and if they know what to expect. My lad would love all the music and screaming ( and yes before anyone says anything I do know the difference between him loving something and hating it I bred him and know him inside out)
We get this every year after Towerlands, people making assumptions that the horses are terrified and usually by people who didnt go. I saw a couple that were frightened but more frightened of their handler but thats another topic.....
Janet |
