| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vik1 |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 1:22:32 PM
Im having a continual headache with my yo, to point Im seriously thinking about leaving and going elsewhere regarding this issue. We are never ever going to agree and there is no compromise with her either. Im just wondering what yous all do.
She believes on only worming 2 x a year, spring and autumn, to do all worms including tapeworm. Shes thinks any more and theyl build resistance to wormers. Shel always do the same one too.
I believe, in worming for tapeworm spring/autumn. Encysted tapeworm in nov (using pramox or 5 day panacur). In between I like to do egg counts on both my horses and worm if necc, using anything.
I tried to discuss egg counts with her and she said an egg count was done when your horse first came here and it showed nothing (4 years ago). Also shel only pick random horses and do say 4, even tho there is a bout 15 horses on the yard. She thinks that if they show nothing then its obv the rest are the same.
I know for def different as my latest egg count proves this. My youngster came back as 450 and my 23yo came back as <50!
The fields arent poo picked or cross grazed and Im getting to my wits end. I dread even saying the word knowing Im going to get my face chewed and her screw and face up and walk off in a strop. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MinHe |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 9:12:15 PM
Originally posted by Dot
Slightly off track but ivermectin is the harshest of chemicals, wormer wise, on the population of the poor old dung beetle hence I won't use it on my 'land' so to speak. Moxidectin is not as bad as ivermectin.
Thinking about it, I haven't seen dung beetles for yonks!
Keren |
| barbara.gregory |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 5:06:02 PM
I do put wormers in the feed, the rest will reluctantly eat it but he refuses; just throws the feed bucket round the stable. He is fine for jabs, carrot in mouth, jab in neck and he doesn't even realise it has been done. I may have to try the granules but they don't do all worms. I suppose I could starve hin for a week so that he is so hungry he will eat anything!!!!!!
Just joking.
Barbara |
| Kes |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 1:43:01 PM
It used to be ages ago that you shouldn't feed at worming time, it was thought that a feed would 'push' the chemicals through the gut too quickly reducing efficiency. I think nowadays you can safely put a wormer in anything edible.
I remember a friend of mine using the caramel flavoured wormer once and her mare got awful diarrhoea for about 2/3 days afterwards, never again! |
| Vik1 |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 12:45:23 PM
We couldnt get near our highland with a syringe or we'd end up kicked, bitten and flattened. She was petrified of them. Flu/tet time would bring us out in cold sweats just thinking about it, lol. We ended up putting the paste in her feed. Its not ideal and not the way you should do it but for us it was the only choice. We tried the hole in apple thing. |
| Kes |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 11:20:23 AM
Barbara, I'm presuming you can't worm the horse in question with it in the feed, I thought the granules were tasteless but I know that limits you to a few short acting wormers like Strongid P, but you can put syringe paste in a feed I thought. I haven't done it myself but there are some big horses in my yard who put up a very big fight so this is the easiest route. |
| barbara.gregory |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 10:51:00 AM
On the subject of worming, does anyone have a fool proof method of worming a horse who would die rather than be wormed? tried everytning I can think of all to no avail.
Barbara |
| RUTHIE |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 5:30:39 PM
Start again, sorry pc mind of its own. My point been on loads of yards and must say I have met some whacky YO re worming. One wanted us to worm every 6 weeks and another just picked what she thought was right. Had many a disagreement and just landed on deaf ears. In the NHS we 'blanket' vaccinate in the flu jab period, meaning we only vaccinate the at risk groups ie diabetics etc. This then covers the healthy population. Likewise with egg counts. If you egg count all the horses on the yard you only worm the ones that need it, again protecting the ones that don't need to be wormed at this particular time. This stops unnecessary worming. Next point pasture management and worm for the season. Off my soap box now. |
| RUTHIE |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 5:12:02 PM
Can i make a point? Been on loads of yards (thankfully gees at home now), and I |
| Kes |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 5:03:47 PM
Dot, you would be the perfect YO/M!!! Oh for an ideal world!! I also agree with your suggestion of parasite control within the livery yard environment.
The biggest battle I seem to have at the moment is educating people about worm counts/wormer resistance. When I say it some they look at me like I am talking a foreign language, yet this has been on-going for years. I appreciate not everyone is up to date with current info, it's the people who you tell that indiscriminate worming practices will eventually put all of us in the same situation, no worming chemicals left that are effective!! Rant over, sorry :) |
| Dot |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 4:51:37 PM
I totally agree re livery yards and worming, none I have ever used had what I would consider an adequate system. Varied from owners left to there own devices through to we will worm your horses for you, not tell you when or what or do worm counts.
My ideal system on a livery yard would be yard owner/ manager worms all horses as 3 monthly worm counts required using same drug in year and weight tape /bridge weights. Results and dates on a spreadsheet in yard office/ emailed to owners so know what is going on and have a personal record for when if leave yard. All costs included in an itemised livery bill.
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| Kes |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 4:14:40 PM
I agree very much with what has been written by Dot, but I am also in a similar bad situation as Vik1. The yard I am at does not poo-pick either, just pasture rotation, my friend and I want to poo-pick but the other 5 won't so it's futile really. Of the 17 horses at our yard my friend and I are the only ones who worm count. I have had Kes 4 months now so have done 2 counts, the first came back at about 250epg and I used Pramox and 2 weeks ago the count came back <50epg.
I may be wrong here so totally stand to be corrected but it's with regard to out of sinc worming. It does say on wormers that they should stay off the grazing for 3 days after worming, I'm guessing they are expelling onto the pasture. So if eveyone is out of sinc then worms are being expelled onto the pasture and no horse will be truly worm free. Depending on which chemical you use your horse can have a resistance for 2 weeks after worming, but after that they are then open to re-infection and the cycle starts again.
I have a friend at another yard (big livery yard) and they have worm counts and worm regardless of result. When she and her friend get their results if they are low they show the YM the empty syringe (a requirement), she doesn't know she's been seeing the same ones over and over so my friend gets away with worming as she doesn't need to.
Again, with what has been said by Dot (and I am ex-pharma myself), there has been no money invested in worming chemicals although the resistance problem is being monitored and people are encouraged to report findings.
The yard I am has a steel rule of no worm counts done, 4 x wormers a year regardless. The lady who does it is very good and always weight tapes, changes chemicals yearly (not just products) etc. But it does make me wonder why people aren't seing the bigger picture here. A horse left the yard this year and was found to have a high worm burden inclusive of tapeworm.
Sorry if this doesn't help with your question Vik1 but I wanted you to see that being on a livery yard is difficult for most people when it comes to wormers, it's not just the place you are at. I am moving soon and going to a 'field each' DIY comp yard, I believe it's the only solution for me and Kes to lower his risk of exposure. Tough times :( |
| Vik1 |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 4:06:14 PM
Dot thats interesting about the resistance levels. My yo believes that all horses should be wormed at the same time, with the same wormer. yes I believe this too and this is the ideal situation BUT I will worm my horse in between these 2x a year if I feel its necessary which like in case of Storm just now, who has a count of 450.
For just now, until I find a new home for them I am just going to do my own thing. Its not ideal but in light of things, its better than nothing. Im certainly not going to let storm egg count get into the 'high' region. |
| Dot |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 2:26:24 PM
The big worry from a pharmaceutical view point of always using the same wormer is resistance build up like we all know. The issue for a yard owner with every person using a different wormer and worming schedule, with or without worm counts, is the problem of multiple drug resistances building up in the remaining worm population thus making all of the current wormers available on the market totally useless as worm control mechanisms. Note little money is being invested by phrma companies in wormer development, so it is very likely the drugs we have now will be the same ones available to use in 20-30 years time....
The problem is worsened by the fact that some people do not realise that ivermectin and moxidectin based wormers are from the same drug family and changing between the two is not actually rotating your wormer. Recent research has shown that ivermectin resistant worms can also be moxidectin resistant!!!!!
Re the difference in your youngsters and older horses counts, this is most likely a result in the difference in the horses natural resistance to worms that takes a few years to build up, note it can decline as animals age. Sure you already know this.
Since having my own place and full charge of my horses worming I have found it very interesting to note how different horses worm counts change over time that are managed under the same grazing system. For over two years now one of mine has not needed worming according to his worm counts. I have still done the tape worm and encystylated worming every year. Though am thinking of blood testing them for tape worms this year, just got to check costs of doing in relation to wormer cost to start with.
Slightly off track but ivermectin is the harshest of chemicals, wormer wise, on the population of the poor old dung beetle hence I won't use it on my 'land' so to speak. Moxidectin is not as bad as ivermectin.
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| complete novice |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 1:47:03 PM
With the worry you have with Velvet made worse by the constant changes of who is out with who and this it might be worth seeing what else is available in your area, agree with Alison I would just do my own, only downside is with poo picking not being done I think I read somewhere it is easy for the eggs to hatch etc and re-infest the horses |
| alison |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 1:40:58 PM
Interesting, Beau's worm count has just come back at 350 and the vet said this is borderline so may be best to worm him which I will do. Can you not just worm your own horse!!! it will have no impact on the others and then you will feel you have done the best thing. I have never heard of a yard owner stopping anyone worming their own horse so I am sure this will not be a problem, if it is then just don't tell her and get on with it. Hope this helps.
Alison |
