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T O P I C R E V I E W
Miska
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 4:58:51 PM Some of you may remember my post back in February when I was very down about my new horse, Enys, who was very grumpy - and bit and kicked. He had been in a horsebox accident moments after I bought him and been injured (though only superficially).
As alot of you told me, he has actually turned into a fantastic ridden horse and I have started jumping him - he has so much potential. He is really well behaved to be ridden, so no problems there.
However he is still a grumpy git and tries to bite people (he doesn't kick anymore) on the ground. I have done groundwork and had a intellegent horsemanship lady in but his newest thing is going for people who are in the field.
We run a livery yard and thankfully only have one livery's horse in with him (as well as our other mare). He has been going for me for a couple of weeks, but I have been able to push him backwards and assert dominance (without shouting or hitting him) - but this only works for a bit. However today one of the liveries (a 16 year old) said that he went for her...I CANNOT have this!
We don't have many fields so we can't split them up very well and the livery needs to be able to get her horse in (which is also shared by some younger girls). We already had to take the other gelding out, because the gelding attacked him (resulting in Enys jumping a 5-bar gate!).
So what on earth do I do? It is not all the time, but it is getting more and more frequent. He has had all the checks and there is nothing wrong with him physically now. He is ok to handle, except for the biting and is pretty laid back horse...
17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Miska
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 09:00:33 AM
Originally posted by basbob
How did he live in Ireland? I've known many horses that have been stabled 24/7 without having enough "free time" or exercise that have become biters to people passing their stable.
I think he came from a breeder with only one mare. It is possible that when he was broken in he was stabled but I don't think so. He is a very hardy boy (he is an ISH not an arab) and doesn't seem bothered by the rain, whereas a horse that had live in alot may have been.
He is worse though if he is indoors for longer than he wants.
Pasch - that's very interesting and does make sense. I suppose the only way for horses to get over it is to just work through it with time and patience.
basbob
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 11:03:45 PM How did he live in Ireland? I've known many horses that have been stabled 24/7 without having enough "free time" or exercise that have become biters to people passing their stable.
Pasch
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 8:34:17 PM I think you are right when saying it's fear mingled with dominance,or at least trying to be dominant as a defense against what he sees as fearful,as you said there were many people after the accident,it seems like he associated humans with something stressing and traumatic.Maybe suffering with the horse equivalent of human post-traumatic disorder(not joking!)That might be why he's ok when tacked and under saddle,because that's a different set up in his mind and not associated with the accident and rescue?A friend of mine bought a mare,put her in a paddock,when he went to take her she attacked him mouth open and tried to turn to kick him.She was really vicious and fast.Only way to catch her was to lazo her.As soon as she felt a rope around her neck or a halter,she was a lamb and could be handled and ridden by a child.But in the field she was a killer.I think when horses become so dangerous it is best to get help from a professional.It is not easy to know what to do,maybe his reaction is triggered by some movement you do and you don't even realize it,I wouldn't risk my safety...
Miska
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 7:41:36 PM
Originally posted by Fee
I'm not going to add anymore either, not anything wrong, I just get too engrossed in such problems and forget others have ideas and opinions, sorry
Fee
Why are you apologising ? You've been really helpful. Thank you. I will try the longline trick, as I am sure he can't take too much dislike to this, as as you say it is similar to another horse flicking it's tail.
Quarabian - Thanks, it means alot to know that people think I am approaching it the right way, even if I am not having the best success. I think my first course of action is to move the liveries horse and then I can work on his behavour in the field, knowing that there is no one that needs to walk in the field except myself and my mum.
zebedeedeb - I try not to move my feet but as you said can be difficult. I think part of the problem is that the alpha keeps him on a very tight leash and so he thinks he can get away with things with humans. I will continue to do more inhand work and hope it helps. Thank you
zebedeedeb
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 7:25:30 PM i so agree with fee,, i am doing my natural horsemanship diploma and we have a mare with very similar behaviour on it,, she is sweet one minute next second she is coming straight at you, and means it,, she is a 16.2 cob/tb and heavyweight with it,, he needs to be kept out of your personal space wether u are standing still or walking , and its so important that you dont move your feet ,easy to say i know , protect it with carrot stick or line, very good phrase to remember, "he who moves his feet first loses" and its so true with dominant horses,, get him doing lots of moving his feet in different directions , front and back end with direct and indirect pressure , back wards and forwards,, try to get a solid foundation so he sees you as a good leader and not a threat,he will learn to respect you , it may take some time, but will be so worth it, maybe more so with what he has had to deal with,, deb
Fee
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 7:22:14 PM I'm not going to add anymore either, not anything wrong, I just get too engrossed in such problems and forget others have ideas and opinions, sorry
Fee
Quarabian
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 7:06:50 PM Well it sounds like you are doing the right thing. if he will back away from you without a cue from a whip, then there is no problem, but if you walk away he is asserting his dominance. I am not suggesting you whack him with the whip, use it to protect yourself by asking him to back up from a distance that he can't reach to bite you. I do understand that he might have issues with the whip. You will need to accustum him to this in a gentle way, stroking him with it in the stable so that it isn't seen as a threat, just one of your tools. I won't add any more, I don't want to confuse you.
Fee
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 7:05:47 PM It is sounding like dominance but I'm still not convinced hes not in pain. Personally I would get him checked out by an osteopath (not a chiropractor) then if all is good you know for sure he's trying to boss you.
Re dominance I would get myself a halter and 12ft line. I wouldn't use any kind of whip. The 12ft line can be used like a horse uses its' tail. Flick him away like horses communicate their personal space with each other with their tail. If he comes at you with aggression its important you try not to move and match his efforts with just ever so slightly more, use the rope and your voice. Defend your space with the rope and drive him away. It's just what another horse would do with him and he understands it that language. Maybe time for him to go to secondary school?
Fee
Miska
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:33:32 PM
Originally posted by Fee
Just re-read your reply again and noted the Ireland connection, so yes it could be a fear/dominance reaction to humans only. What's he like with humans in general, past and present? Is he ever aggressive when tied up or is it only when he's at liberty?
Yep will bite when tied up...As soon as his tack is on he is an angel. I think it probably is fear mingled in with dominance. He has moved homes at least three times in the last year. Home in Ireland > Irish dealer (who broke him) > to English dealer (reputable) > to me. He was a saint to handle when tried him out, my vet (who's very picky) even said he was lovely and so friendly - though he did playfully nip but in a baby way. Maybe it just escalated after his accident, when there were loads of humans (took 14 firemen, 2 vets and an animal rescue guy to get him out).
I think it is psychological but I jsut don't know how to do anything. I am even willing to give a horse communicator a try, even though I am not a believer! He's been with us six months now and he has had the life of riley (I have tried to be firm throughout, though I myself was a little traumatised by the accident, so I definetly feared him to begin with).
Miska
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:28:35 PM Thank you all.
He's been given the all clear by the chiro...She says he is slightly crooked still but no more so than alot of horses. Jumping wise I haven't been doing anything much, only little cross poles and I have been steadily building it up since March. I am giving him a bute trial this week to see if it makes any difference.
What I mean about quick enough, is that if you don't walk away then he will bite. Me, personally, I make him go backwards - which doesn't make him angry. This is what the horsemanship lady taught me and it does work to stop him temporarily(I have tried shouting and giving him a whack, which just makes him very angry.) I haven't taken a whip out with me yet, though not sure how he would react to that as then he may see me as more of a threat.
He's good to catch, put headcollar on, might try and nip you whilst leading, but usually nothing much. Walks in like a lamb.
Fee
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:22:44 PM Just re-read your reply again and noted the Ireland connection, so yes it could be a fear/dominance reaction to humans only. What's he like with humans in general, past and present? Is he ever aggressive when tied up or is it only when he's at liberty?
Quarabian
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:15:37 PM Maybe not the alpha horse, but this is still dominant behaviour. What if you take a long stick (possibly carrot stick or lunge whip) into the field and just get him to give you some space. Perhaps that is what fee means with the line.
You say if you are not qiuck enough, so what is it you do that stops him if you are quick enough?
Fee
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:14:32 PM Hmmm...if he's not dominant then I feel it must be pain related. You mentioned jumping him, worse since then? Do you have an osteopath who could check him out?
12ft line is my main tool rope line, not a lead rope.
Fee
Miska
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 6:03:21 PM He's not the alpha, in fact he isn't dominant at all...My other mare is the alpha. She keeps him very much in check. He is a puppy with the other horses just humans he dislikes (he's from Ireland so god knows what happened to him there!)
The livery is actually selling her horse soon (unrelated), so it will be just down to our two. But it can't be like that forever - as we only have two fields (& a few paddocks) and will need to get some more liveries in soon. The other gelding is now settled with our retired arab - he's a bit neurotic and it's the first time I have seen him properly settled, so I don't want to upset him.
I just don't understand it, as Enys is a really lazy horse, so you would think he couldn't be bothered about doing anything that requires effort - like biting. There just seems no reason behind it. He will saunter up to you as sweet as pie, ears forward and then just pull a face. Then if you are not quick enough he will go for you. It's not really vicious but vicious enough to be scary.
What do you mean by line? Do you mean just inhand work or doing something in the field with a longline?
He has only just started doing this in the last few weeks, so I haven't made a move with the livery yet but as you say it is dangerous...So we are going to have to move them but the logisitics is a nightmare.
Argh!
Fee
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 5:25:34 PM If you are sure it's not pain related then it must be dominance. Is he the herd leader? He is likely feeling threatened that people are taking his herd. It has been my observation that the most insecure alpha's are actually the most aggressive/assertive with their herd and any humans interferring with the herd. Also the insecure herd leader is often the one who gets into real panics when left without a herd, hence they will 'fight' to stop you taking them away. Ironically when with the human these types tend to be the most laid back. Does that sound like him?
What can you do if it's the above? Unfortunately you have to remove the human livery from the equation or she may get injured. You mustn't allow him to dominate you (personally I'd use my 12ft line to keep him a safe distance). You have to build his insecurities by doing this (removing his herd) often and gradually leaving him alone more often and for longer periods.
I can offer more ideas/advice if you think this sounds like him. If not I'll have another think when I hear more of what he does. Hope that maybe helps some meantime?
Fee
hazelcat74
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 5:11:11 PM I left a livery yard because of a horse that went for people in the field and so did 2 other ladies. In my opinion he should be separate from other people's horses, its just too dangerous for other people and you may end up losing the livery. Difficult situation for you but not worth the risk.
Pheebs
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 5:10:46 PM I know this isn't really a solution, but all I can think of is to separate the field into smaller sections using electric fencing so that your liveries don't have to go into his space, and in the mean time keep going with the ground work and continue to remind him who's boss. Sorry I couldn't be of more help but best of luck!
? You've been really helpful. Thank you. I will try the longline trick, as I am sure he can't take too much dislike to this, as as you say it is similar to another horse flicking it's tail.
rope line, not a lead rope. 
