| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MirandaToo |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:00:57 PM
Hi all
OK, I'm a complete bitless virgin!!   I know nothing about riding bitless and have never tried, but am interested in finding out a bit more - and I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, so apologies in advance in any questions sound that way  Also I may sound a bit thick!
Firstly, is a bitless bridle kinder than bitted? Assume it works mainly on poll pressure, nose and poss chin groove?? Is this 'better' for a horse than having a well fitted bit? I would assume it is more 'natural' (as much as it can be!). I assume it is still a case of whatever you use is only as good as a rider's hands?
Why would you choose to swap? Indeed is it easy to JUST swap from bitted to bitless? Would you have to re-train a horse or is it a fairly natural switch?
In a bitless bridle are horses ridden differently - eg do you ride on a contact (my preconceptions are that is a more western style of riding). Do you have a 'feel' on the end of the reins? Would you, as a rider, have to have lessons on a bitless horse to relearn a different style of riding? If this were the case are there places that teach bitless riding?
Again, I know I sound stupid , but what is like to ride bitless - have to say I've ridden in headcollars and ropes for fun, but the idea of not having a bit and going for a blast across the beach or something would actually scare me!! Fear of the unknown I'm sure
Sorry for all the questions, and once again I'm not trying to start some huge debate, but am genuinely interested !!!
Thanks in advance |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Fee |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 7:44:38 PM
Must admit I've never seen a horse do endurance carrying their head like they're doing dressage. Therefore for them to use their hinds as their engine, engage and carry themselves I don't think it can be about the head being tucked under as you can see with Po. I do admit, although she might not look it but we were about 2km away from home after a 65km ride in that bottom pic and she knew it, bless her she was tired too and it was at that vetting she was lamed out and subsequently diagnosed with a spavin  So it's not a good example to look at her outline as I only put it up to show her bosal. Interesting topic all the same about how we want them to carry themselves and why and how they want to naturally carry themselves.
I think the best way to see how your horses wants to move is to give them a consistent long rein and time.
Fee
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| Callisto |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 11:35:09 AM
I do think physical type has something to do with it - Harley has naturally carried himself in an outline since he arrived as a 4 year old, as you can see in my sig pic, Lily's more the 'head up nose out' type I'm hoping she will drop her head when I finally try her bitless, just waiting for the farrier, suitable conditions and a bit of courage - no school available so will have to bite the bullet and try it out on a (very quiet) hack. She evades the bit by sticking her head out even further and opening her mouth when I want to stop and she doesn't. |
| Arachnid |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 10:38:48 AM
Its interesting what Sarah-Pasha says about Pasha being in an outline even in the field! Spider in the field has his head and tail in the air and his back pretty much hollow, so I dont think its a 'running away from pain' kind of stance. And unlike Patriot (great name by the way) he is not difficult to persaude into an outline, its just he wouldnt choose to carry me like that, and doesnt as soon as I stop asking.
If you look at Po in the very lovely photos of her, she is carrying herself BUT her head is stuck out and she is not in 'dressage mode' is she? Her back is probably concave not convex. Ditto Spider in my third signature picture (and most of my endurance shots).
Are we trying to make our horses bend unnaturally? (Well me really, not you) In the long run is this better or worse than letting them
carry us as they prefer?
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| Patriot |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 8:22:31 PM
Pats a head in the air kind of guy :) Even when i used a bit it was a constant struggle to keep him in an outline, i could keep him in one at walk after a while, but trot - no chance! i will keep working on him, but hes 20 and stuck in his ways. All we do is pootle about really anyway, so im not too worried. I have managed to get him in an outline in the bitless, the same as you would with a bit, push forward and squeeze on each rein but hes hard work LOL |
| Fee |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 8:03:55 PM
I'm just really not sure on that one Arachnid. I was always lead to believe that when given a long rein (if they have been hollow back star gazers) that they will eventually reach down and stretch out (it may take a some time though and you'll have to persevere). My thinking is that that hollow shape is them objecting and trying to evade the contact but I could be totally incorrect.
I remember when Po realised she had a constant long rein she would canter and trot along with her nose literally on the ground, which was quite scary, but she found her own shape and way to go quite quickly when she realised I wasn't 'restricting' her.
Fee
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| Pasha |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 10:28:50 AM
Yes I do!!!
Pasha hasn't been ridden for 2 years, in nearly 24, with Cushings and IR and still looks like he could go out and win a GP! He always has had the most amazing topline and found working correctly effortless - he even canters in an outline in the field
Shesky on the other hand despite mine and physio efforts, goes hollow backed and head in the air! When he is 'au naturel' it is even worse Just have to accept he will never have the 'classic topline' and embrace his star gazing arabness... he does have a very cute face though which makes up for it x |
| Arachnid |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 09:28:49 AM
'I remember the vet commenting on her topline and tone saying I can see you ride her in a correct outline '
Do you think they either have it or they dont then? Spider never has much topline despite my attempts to ride in an outline at least half of the time. (But he doesnt have much weight on him anywhere, its a constant struggle)
We never used to ride with a contact when we were children and the horses seem to survive. I am starting to wonder if this is fashion rather than 'correct'?
Sorry, I seem to be off topic. |
| Fee |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 8:34:58 PM
Miranda Too I think you're right, the biggest part about bitless is the 'mental' part in us. I think it's maybe what we were all taught, i.e. you don't have control of your horse unless it has a bit in and you have a contact with it. Once you get over that conditioning you get great results and communication going.
I kinda have the opposite problem right now, I hate riding with a bit, as soon as I ride with a bit I want to take up a contact and I don't like riding like that, I guess I have to retrain myself as I think it's good to be able to go from one to the other, for you and your horse. That's why with Polka I want to keep the contact work for in the school, so that she knows the difference and doesn't object or dislike it. Like I said previously though I really don't know if what I do is right or good. I just think, do and get feedback from my horse and go back to the think part if the feedback isn't good 
Fee |
| Fee |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 8:18:21 PM
Originally posted by Arachnid
How do you ask them to carry themselves properly without a contact? I think mine would potter along with his head in the air and his back hollowed (which he does in any case if I ride on a long rein)
Not sure about the others who ride bitless but personally I don't ride in a 'contact'. I found that quite quickly of riding like this Po carried herself. Really not sure if that's a 'Po' thing or if it's something they would do naturally. I remember the vet commenting on her topline and tone saying I can see you ride her in a correct outline 
Re Polka I will always hack her out bitless and no contact but I've introduced the snaffle to her and intend to take up a contact with her in the school.
I'm not really qualified to answer tbh as I just do my own thing and what suits me and my horses, so prob best ignoring me 
Fee
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| Arachnid |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 4:25:54 PM
How do you ask them to carry themselves properly without a contact? I think mine would potter along with his head in the air and his back hollowed (which he does in any case if I ride on a long rein)
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| Holly |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 12:46:41 PM
Hi
I ride both my purebred arab mares in a rope halter and rope reins the same as in 'Fees' pictures above. Except that i had rope reins especialy made with small clips that clip onto the knot loops under the chin.
Both my mares love being ridden this way and I have never had a problem with controll, infact other people that have ridden my horses say that it feels no different to riding in a bit.
I have taken them on long hacks in this way over open moorland and accross the beach and in all paces and never have a problem with stopping. I do ride on a long rein in all paces and only tend to take up a contact if we are crossing a road or are at a junction etc.
I ride this way on the roads too and also have schooled and jumped my mare in this way. However i do generally school/jump in a snaffle bit as i like to compete locally in the summer so like to keep the bit familiar in her mouth for these disciplines rather than only making her use one at shows as i think she would see that as a negative thing.
As far as schooling goes- i find that both my mares carry themselfs in a natural way when in a halter rather than the working unnatural outline that we want them to work in when doing a dressage test or ridden showing class etc. However as soon as my mare is being schooled in her snaffle bit she picks up a lovely contact and imediately works in a nice outline.
I tend to keep hacking as a fun and enjoyable time for me and my horse where we can both relax and stetch on a long rein and then she knows that when we are in the school or jumping that we are there to work and learn. This works for me and my horses but obviously its different for everyone.
Due to being pegnant at the moment i have put both my mares out on loan and both loanees are carrying on riding them in their bitless rope halters when hacking as they cant believe how easy it is which greatly pleases me.
Hope that helps but its just mine and my horses personal experiences.
Holly |
| NagsEquestrian |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 12:02:57 PM
I believe Bitless Bridle UK (who sell the Dr Cook) have a riding school where the horses are ridden bitless? It's in West Wales I think.
All my horses are bitless, I always do some ground work with them in a new bridle so they get the feel of the pressures, then I usually get on, do some transitions and I can usually tell if it's going to work for us.
I can ride all of mine in a natural hackamore, but choose not to on the roads, I currently use an english hackamore, an S hackamore, an LG hackamore with shanks, and 2 sidepulls. I also have scawbrigs and crosspulls in my collection, but I find the horses tend to lean on the crosspulls after a while. I like my hackamores as I ride with no pressure on the reins most of the time, and it allows me to have more 'stop' in a situation where I might really need it with my stronger horses.
My youngster is being backed in a natural hackamore and sidepull, I hope to keep her in a sidepull or use a bosal on her.
I always advise when people ride bitless to ride without a consistent contact, if you constantly ride with a contact and there is always pressure on the nose,the horse may because accustomed to the pressure there and not realize when you are asking for a halt when using nose pressure (in an instance such as your horse has been spooked and is running towards a main road, you need to know your horse is going to stop and if they don't respond to nose pressure you could be in serious trouble). I also teach the one rein stop, just in case. |
| MirandaToo |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 8:20:49 PM
Thanks all for your replies !
Makes interesting reading and, I think, it is something I'll have to do a "bit" more research on (excuse the pun!!!).
At the moment it is something I'm just sort of dipping my toe into. We're v lucky to have got a borrowed pony at the mo so I'm not sure how much I can alter what he is ridden in as he will go back to his owners at some point. However, the more I ride the more I question how well horses go in bits and whether something more 'natural' would be better. Certainly my last horse I tried several different variations of snaffle and never quite felt we'd got it right!
We're hoping to buy a pony of our own and then I would definitely like to try and make the swap to being bitless!
I think, for me, it is quite a mental leap to go to bitless!! Don't suppose if anyone knows of anywhere that teaches in bitless bridles?
Again, thanks for the replies x |
| Fee |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 9:08:46 PM
Hi Miranda, I have only used two types of bitless bridles so can only comment on those.
The Parelli rope hackamore, imo it's great for introducing a bridle/riding and it teaches you and your horse to be light (if used correctly) i.e. you ride with a long rein and when you lift the rein the knot under the chin moves. It is with this lightest of movement you want your horse to respond.
I used the Parelli hackamore all the time when I first got Po and the only reason I sold it was because I wanted 'lighter' reins.
Then 4 years later the same bridle used to back and ride out Polka. Although I'd sold it to a complete stranger (on ebay) it managed to find it's way back to me!
Polka thus far is very light and I doubt I'll use anything but this on her when hacking out.
The other bridle I use is a semi-rigid bosal.
The principle is the same, lift the rein, horse should respond to the lightest movement. This one has more breaks than the rope hackamore, i.e. the bosal is semi rigid compared to the soft rope of the hackamore. The next step up from this if needed would be a rigid bosal, however, if I was needing that move up I'd be asking myself why and getting my horse responsive and light again by looking at how I was using it, i.e. had I become heavier as I'd let my horse ignore the light signals? This did indeed happen to me.
Neither of these bridles use poll pressure even when a tight contact is made, that's my preference and I'd personally never use anything which corkscrews around the poll. If needed and used in a tight contact then they would apply nose pressure. But if you were riding either of them with constant 'contact' the horse would become heavy and do all the things that you often here bitted riders complaining off, e.g. leaning, running through etc.
All the sayings you often hear very much apply in bitless riding imo e.g.light for light, less is best, heavy hands heavy horse and the tools are only as good as the hands using them.
Hope that helps some! 
PS Just remembered I also used a side pull for a while but really didn't like this as I felt my horse didn't need to 'listen' and therefore she leaned, became heavy and just relied on the 'pull' to turn. I much prefer the knot under the chin to keep things central.
Fee
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| suzanna |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 12:30:26 PM
Bitless virgin, well I`m always happy to help out and give advise and loan bitless bridles. I`ve been riding bitless since I was a young girl, and know metal in a horses mouth is painful for our horses.
There are so many different bridles out there, and every horse is different, so it`s important to trial the bridles and get expert advice. My Arabs love the Scawbrigs and Sidepulls.
It is a different way of riding, I am happy to talk you through everything, so if you want to email me personally we can chat that way and not start a debate, and I can give you some informative links that will help you decide on the right bridle.
As you say you don`t want to start a debate so best to email me, if you want to of course. |
| Kelly |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 11:08:52 AM
I've never ridden Jack with a bit and have tried various bitless.
In no particular order:
English hackamore - he hated it, was almost like, to pinch someone elses phrase, he'd 'hit a brick wall'. I didn't use it again.
Rope halter with rope reins - no problems with either brakes or steering, only stopped cos I lost my rope halter!
Rope halter almost like a side pull - instead of one fiador knot under the chin, it has a ring at either side - theoretically more 'direct' steering, but it did move round on his face quite a bit.
Dr Cook - bought because my mum wanted something 'more like a bridle than the rope halter!' - ok to a point, but if he is in a naughty mood and pulls etc, the increased pressure freaks him out and he tenses up, locks muscles in his neck and won't go forward and threatens to rear.
Currently riding out in a rawhide bosal and horsehair mecate (reins). I love it and he's very happy. We did a 5 day trail ride around new country, staying in a different place every night - threw everything at him and had absolutely no issues at all. The bosal could be severe in the wrong hands though, it's fairly rigid.
To be honest, I'd be happy riding him out in a headcollar and lead reins, so maybe not the best example as he's normally fairly easy going.
But the point again is, you don't need a bit for control, and as you've said, any bit of kit in the wrong hands can be harsh.
Advice would be to try as many as you can, in an arena so you can judge your horses reaction. Go into it with an open mind and see how it goes.
It never occurs to me that I 'don't have a bit, eeek', and Jack has better brakes than most bitted horses I know. Because he's been trained to respond that way - nothing to do with a bit or not. |
| Etoile |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 07:24:37 AM
I'm another Dr Cooks fan but it's all about what you and your horse are happy in. Either bitted or bitless good hands and seat are vital as the Dr Cooks has enormous stopping power and it has to be used carefully. The feel is exactly the same feel as with a bit, they come down and will school really well and my instructor who schools Senj the awkward for me was doubtful at first but now says she forgets he is bitless.
I have Salad in a french link and would not swop that because he's quite happy and goes well in it. Senj came with a happy mouth and flash but spent all his time chomping the happy mouth and getting his tongue over the bit even with the flash. So I researched and got a Dr Cook's and just rode him out in it, quite mad I now realise and not recommended, but he took to it straight away like a duck to water and we have never looked back. Ziad arrived with a french link and flash and ground bit and teeth horribly, unfortunately despite having had teeth done regularly in previous home, they were not well balanced so it has been bye bye bit and hello Dr Cooks until teeth are sorted. However, he has taken quite a time to adjust to the Dr Cooks (he is definitely a stick in the mud personality) but is now going well in it. |
| Patriot |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 04:55:08 AM
I also ride Pat in a Dr Cooks, he was in a french link snaffle - but would always have his mouth either open or chomping like crazy tring to hold the bit in his teeth to evade it. It was suggested i use a flash and /or bit up. I decideed if a simple french link wasnt comfortable, something stronger probably wouldnt be either. Pats very sensitive in the mouth and i have to ride with washing line reins too - its encouraged over here. I had had the dentist out so i know there were no mouth problems. I also know my horse and he would not be happy with his mouth closed in a flash, and would no doubt let me know that LOL, so i decided to try the other way and drop the bit altogether. I bought a 2nd hand dr cooks and at first he went really well, then after a couople of rides he realised he had more freedom to move his head and took the mickey with sterring and trying to just go where he wanted, lol, he soon realised that i still had control, just on his poll and under his chin intead of in his mouth and could still use my body to guide him, and now he goes great. His mouth is never open and hes much more relaxed. It is slightly  when we're trotting and hes turns his head almost to look at me and i think hes gonna crash lol, but mostly i dont even realise we're bitless so i think it was the right move. We still have just as good, if not better brakes and steering as hes not evading it the whole time, we have always had issues with high head carriage and have been working on bringing it down, it does seem harder in a bitless, but we did manage to get him in a nice frame eventually :)
I dont know a great deal about other types of bitless, i have read a bosal is less severe than a mechanical hackamore, and that with the mechanical hackamore 1 lb of pressure on the reins feels like 10lbs to the horse and so more severe. Good luck and let us know what you decide! |
| MinHe |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 11:12:20 PM
Originally posted by Callisto
hackamores are quite severe, I believe bosals are considerably less so.
The German hackamore is very severe (it is basically just steel rope over the nose) and I personally would never use one again - tried it once and my girl reacted as though she'd hit a brick wall. Went home and changed it IMMEDIATELY.
The English hackamore is like any 'normal' bit with a curb chain - the severity depends on how you use it, it isn't necessarily severe of itself.
I used to ride my old girl (purebred) in an English hackamore all the time, barely any pressure was needed and she learnt to neck-rein virtually straight away. She was very happy with it and much more controllable than in a bit (she was a very strong horse but a lovely ride).
Keren |
| Mrs DJ |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:46:29 PM
Hi
I use a Dr Cooks bitless bridle, my mare has never been ridden in anything else. She has better brakes than most of the bitted horses I know.
I would be an instructors nightmare - I ride with reins like washing lines most of the time (happy hacker), but I have heard of horses schooled to dressage level in these bridles. It never occurs to me that she hasn't got a bit in her mouth.
Dr Cook has a website which has loads of info. Definitely worth a read if you're interested.
There were many reasons why I was convinced to go bitless, one of them being when I read about bits and salivation.
A horse normally only produces saliva when it eats. A bit triggers salivation - unnatural in a working horse.
I also know horses who have been bitted most of their lives, who have happily converted straight away to a bitless bridle. And have no more issues with head tossing, pulling, bolting, diving on the bit etc.
I personally would never use a bit again, but, I accept that, like everything else, it is down to what suits you and your horse.
Read as much as you can - there are several different types of bitless bridle. |
| zooscat |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:29:30 PM
I used to ride the Fatty Crabbet Bomb (aka Ryazan, RIP) in a Dually Halter and he was as, if not more, manageable than in his Myler french link snaffle bit. I used it for going round the farm and the fields for a relaxing potter. I used to neck rein and use weight aids and he was fine. Just as stoppable (or not...depending on mood on the day!)as in the snaffle. I used the snaffle if we were going out in company on the roads,for schooling and for competitions.
Kelly Marks (Intelligent Horsemanship/Monty Roberts)lead person, uses one all the time on her piebald horse, called Pie, with whom she has been very successful in Le Trec etc and her niece very sucessful in Working Hunter show classes. The Dually is a stout headcollar with two cords over the nose, ending in two brass rings, one each end of the nose cords, which fit through the square metal forms that join cheek pieces to ordinary noseband. The lead reins/reins attach to the brass rings and the halter works on pressure on the nose bone. You need to make sure that the cords are in the right place, not too low on the nose. The Dually is quite expensive - £45 about ten years ago, but very well made and a very useful bit of kit for leading and working horses safely and gently on the ground. Find them on the IH website. FCB needed no retraining to understand the idea and happily swopped between the two. Hopes this helps! |
| Callisto |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:23:14 PM
If you do a 'bitless' search on here, there are numerous threads that might well answer a lot of your questions. I am seriously considering going bitless with my young girl because I cannot find a soft bit that she appears comfortable in (on the other hand she is convinced she is a racehorse, so I need to have reliable brakes). There are a variety of bitless bridles that range from the soft to the quite severe. I have a Dr Cook which I have yet to try on Lily, but I am waiting for the right conditions, as I understand it some horses love them and some horses hate them (Dr Cooks), they apply pressure around the head. I had an anglo who bolted, tried him in just about every thing including a Natural Horsemanship rope bridle and an english hackamore (plus snaffle, pelham, 3 ring gag etc. etc. ), none of them worked and he was happiest in a waterford snaffle and shouted instructions (if I shouted whoa he knew we were about to hit an area of danger and would slow), hackamores are quite severe, I believe bosals are considerably less so.
IMO there is no reason to believe that a bit is necessary for control, if the horse is amenable to aids from whatever you use. I am sure that there are plenty of experienced people on here who can give you more info on the choices available. |
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