| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| angelarab |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 12:28:49 PM
Can anyone post pics of the various type of Arabs and explain what makes them different,I just see an Arabian horse and go all mushy 
Baz is Spanish/egyptian what does that mean i hear Spanish Arabs are really chilled out and thicker build then egyptian?? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TOOTHLESS |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 12:31:56 PM
It's very obvious to me that every country has to set an Internationally Recognized Standard OF Exellence
How can you open yourself to be judged by a judge, or, as is more common now, judges from countries that don't have a standard.
For example I recently went to a A class show ,where the halter workout was an insult to the exhibitors(virtually none), where the 3yr old colt champion was so far back at the knee they were close to his hocks (Slight Exaggeration), was short legged,looong in the back, and when he dashed in moved like a hackney. Now this horse was put forward for our consideration as a possible sire. The presiding judge was from overseas. Now this colt will be used by his breeder as a testament to his sire. This was a bit of livestock I wouldn't take if he were given to me.
I, and I"m sure many others suspect that corruption is rife in the industry.
A few years ago a stallion became ...................Champion before it was discovered that he had only 1 descended testicle. His title was relinquished. Where was this missing testicle at the time of his numerous wins in the years prior to it being discovered missing??? Scandalous.
Forget about misleading strains, Al Khamsa, and other mythology look at the Standard.
I have a feeling I mentioned the show fiasco on this site before but it was censored |
| barbara.gregory |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:35:32 AM
Some interesting posts! As the strain is decided by the tail female line you may have a horse in front of you who is of a comleletely different strain from that ascribed to it.
As the straight Egyptian is the only "pure" strain (and please don't read that as the only pure Arab and shoot me down) you would expect that they would be much more similar in type than others such as Russian, Polish, etc. All the strains came from the deset but over the years none of them have been bred exclusively as the bedouins did when they each kept their own herds, and the strains have now been well and truly mixed.
SE are often more refined with the tiny teacup muzzle and the exotic head. I personally see a lot of not so good croups in SEs. They are highly intelligent and highly sensitive and are people loving but may not suffer fools gladly! They should have lovely big black eyes who mirror their soul but that too is not as often present now. They often have plain heads as foals but then develop a lovely head over several years.
The Crabbets are often more rounded and heavier with less exotic heads and calmer temperaments; super riding horses and all round family horses.
Russians I have seen tend to be bigger, heavier and with fantastic movement.
Polish always bring to mind mares rather than stallions. Some of the mares are more rounded and have that magical something that you can't put your finger on, you just want to take them home and cherish them.
Spanish tend to be heavier, thicker necks and often plainer heads with heavy muzzles (hence the fabulous cross with SEs where you refine the head and neck) and those wonderful huge Spanish eyes.
These are only my own personal thoughts on what I have seen and bred.
The post with the general summary (including colour) is very similar yo my thoughts.
When Judi Forbis was asked what three things she looked for in an Arab she replied "Type, type, type" and that is so true. It doesn't matter what the horse is like unless you are a breeder but it should always look like an Arab.
Unfortunately some breeders are taking the Arab down the road dog breeds have gone and they are becoming "pet poodles" rather than real horses. At the end of the day an Arab should be the supreme riding horse who turns his hoof to anything and is also a treasured member of the family with a wonderful temperament.
Barbara |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 08:33:44 AM
Becky you are right , there is much diversity within the breed in looks and conformation considering they all came from the same tiny gene pool.
there will always be people going on about their lines being the best, you must choose what your mind tells you is the ideal one to you. look at the way dogs have been selected for differing things and you will see mans hand in the changes within the arabian.
look to the desert from before the onset of change and work from there. some have changed for the better some have not, breeders who seek to keep the type and beauty whilst taking care not to loose funtionality are the TRUE keepers of the Arabian. why cant you have it all? |
| BeckyBoodle |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 06:44:57 AM
No offence taken whatsoever. Was some text that came up from Google. I wondered if it was any use as a starter for 10.
As has been said, with the blood of so many strains from so many countries all intermingled, it must be hard to fit a horse into just one box.
With my girl, she is mainly Egyptian bred including old Egyptians, new Egyptian and Crabbet and some old English, with a bit of Polish and a dash of Spanish. Her relatives come from across the world, from the Middle East to start with then the UK, the US, Canada, Poland, France, Germany, Hungary, Spain and some others. I think her strain like Ozzy's (as they are quite closely related) is Kehaileh Rodanieh Ibn Rualla to Rodania, but I think someone said she was also loaded with Seglawi.
In a way I wish I had known more about Arabs before I started my search for one (I probably would have been better off knowing more about horses and conformatin in general), but at the same time what I wanted was a horse to do some dressage and pleasure rides with ahead of one with a particular shaped face etc. Therefore I was looking more at head carriage and leg action etc. And when I look back at what started my love of Arabs - growing up in the Middle East - I think the arabs I remember were substantial ridden horses. I will have to see if I can find the old photos out or my old stud book from Bahrain, which I would pour over dreaming of the day when I would finally have my horse.
My other half also always finds it amazing how long I can spend pouring over AllBreed - what I find amazing is that so many horses have similar ancestors with various results. I assume that to start with that there was such a relatively small pool of horses to draw from in the West that a lot of today's horses will have the same names popping up.
B |
| TOOTHLESS |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 12:25:19 AM
BeckyBoodle; no offence but I see Raswan's spanner, wrenches, and florid imagination in those descriptions.
What Keren is saying is as it is today |
| MinHe |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 10:38:46 PM
Nicole, your Ozzy sounds very much what I'd expect from a horse with his ancestry (and that much Fadl!).
'Old' Egyptians differ very much from the 'New' Egyptian lines, esp the heavy Nazeer ones. New Egyptian lines have been bred primarily in the US over the last 25 years or so for aesthetics, not functionality, and too often have a short, upright shoulder and calf knees. The 'Old' lines however were never promoted as "living art" in the way the 'New' onne have, and so they retain their rounded bodies and slender (but strong) legs of their ancestors, together with dry (if not markedly dished) heads and good eyes. For me, the 'Old' Egyptians epitomise the classic type of Arabian, before the modern fancy for extreme heads kicked in.
Ozzy is young yet, but the joy of these OE lines is that they are slow maturing, and like Stilton cheese, just get better with age  Once he turns 7 or so, he will really bloom!
Keren
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| Nichole Waller |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 6:25:31 PM
This is really interesting... I didn't know anything about 'type' or the different strains when i bought Ozzy (Eas Sabbah) http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eas+sabbah
Bia kindly worked mine out for me and Ozzy (Eas Sabbah) has 31 crosses (13 lines) and is 22.56% in blood to the famous FADL, imported to USA in 1932 by Henry Babson. His percentages are (is??) 84.35% Egyptian / 15.65% Polish (with a dash of French) and he is 40.18% Crabbet.
Strain: Kehilan Ajuz of Ibn Rodan to RODANIA Or.Ar
He has quite a straight head (hardly any dish) and he has a very big round rib cage with a slightly dipped back. His legs are reasonably fine. He has a wither, but it is not large. He has now developed a lovely muscle along the top of his neck and his quarters have also muscled up a lot since i first got him (as an un backed 4 year old) The picture on All Breed he has only been backed a week and his back doesn't look as 'dipped' as that now he has built up his muscles and learnt to carry himself properly.
When i've clicked on some of the pictures of the horses in his pedigree going way back he has quite a similar shape. He is very like his Sire in shape and i don't know who he takes after in terms of his temperament but he is just wonderful . Very loving and caring, really willing to please, will try absolutely anything you ask him (even if he really doesn't like it - like going through water...!) I just love him to bits... |
| BeckyBoodle |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 4:51:52 PM
I have no idea how acurate the below descriptions are, but thought this an interesting outline of the different strains.
"The Kuhaylan are the original (the ancient) Arabian desert horse. All strains are said to descend from the Kuhaylan. The name derives 'from the black marks certain Arabian horses have around their eyes; marks which give them the appearance of being painted with Kohl after the fashion of Arab women.' Most distinguishing characteristic: Masculine - muscular and powerful. The ideal Kuhaylan is a contrast to the ideal Saqlawi. Both are within the standard of Arabian type, but the Kuhalylan is masculine and the Saqlawi feminine. One is reminded of the Biblical description of Jobe's warhorse when thinking of the Kuhaylan. Head: Very distinguished as to Arabian characteristics. Intimate details are chiseled into skull and facial features. Broadest forehead of all strains with shortest skull. Greatest width between the jowls. Small ears and very large, dark expressive eyes. Neck: Proportionate to overall conformation. Sometimes comes out of chest slightly lower than other strains. General Conformation: Symmetrical and of rounded outlines. Well-balanced, deep chested, wide from front and behind. Compact appearance. Broad across back and hindquarters. Wide forearms and gaskins. Masculine in overall appearance."
"The Hadban are listed as the fourth preference among all the horse strains meticulously described in the Abbas Pasha manuscripts. The Hadban are a substrain of Kuhaylan, but in modern day they tend more to the Saqlawi in type. The Hadban are a great "blending" strain. Some of the most renowned breeding stallions in modern Egypt have come from this strain (e.g., Ibn Rabdan, Nazeer, Aswan). The Dafeer tribe were prominent breeders of this strain. The original traces to the ancient tribe of Beni Lam. The name derives from a mare of the Ben Lam. The mare had a profusely long mane which covered her forehand completely (hadbasalifa) and for that reason she was called Hadba. And the strain was named for her. Most distinguishing characteristics: Handsome and elegant. Great endurance and strength among the Hadban trademarks. They are very good all around horses, having perhaps the finest blood to produce cavalry horses as well as excellent race horses. Head: Can be somewhat boney and straight in profile. Pyramidical in shape. Very wide across the forehead and between the jowls. Relatively short skull. Eyes large and lustrous. Nostrils large and well-shaped. Ears relatively small. Neck: Relatively long, but in balance with body. Muscular, yet refined. Set on more upright than the Kuhaylan. General Confirmation: Long deep shoulders, deep chest. Hindquarters may tend to be light in comparison to the forehand. Relatively long back, short croup, good hip. Fine bone and clean joints. This strain harmonizes well with all families because it is not extreme in itself."
"The Saqlawi are listed as the third preference among all the strains documented in the Abbas Pasha manuscript. The name apparently derives from saqla - meaning a kick. It is said there was an old Kuhayla Ajuz mare among the Kamsa and she was "a saqla mare," meaning while galloping she kicked her heels in the air. And so the strain was named after her, Saqlawiya. Most distinguishing characteristics: Feminine grace and elegance. The ideal Saqlawi represents beauty and refinement in the extreme. Feminine in appearance, they are of equal endurance to the Kuhaylan strains. Lighter in weight and leaner in frame that the Kuhaylan, they are not as strong in the hindquarters, tending to be a bit "light behind," with a tendency to stand under slightly. They are very high-spirited and are natural show horses. They have also succeeded admirably on the race track. The tendency to white markings (blazes, stockings, etc.) comes up through the Saqlawi lines. Raswan noted a preponderance of chestnuts with flaxen manes among this strain; more greys in the Kuhaylan. This is also true among the Moniet family today. Head: Longer and slightly narrower than the Kuhaylan. Longer foreface (eye to muzzle), somewhat resembling the beautiful desert racing camel's head in proportion. Very fine muzzle (the teacup muzzle). Eyes are large, dark and placed lower in the skull than in the Kuhaylan. Nostrils are extremely fine. Skin and hair very silky. Neck: Longer than the Kuhaylan, but in proportion to a longer body. Well-shaped and slender, and carried high. General Confirmation: Overall they are well balanced with good height. They are longer-backed than the Kuhaylan and have strong level toplines with high tail carriage. They are very fine boned and are lighter in bone than the Kuhaylan."
"Dahman are reputed to be from the horses of King Solomon. The name "dahman" means the "dark or black." Originally it was a substrain of the Saqlawi and represents an ideal blending of the Kuhaylan and Saqlawi type. The Dahman crosses exceptionally well with the modern Saqlawi strain. Most distinguishing characteristics: balance and harmony. The Dahman are very classic in type. They resemble the Saqlawi inelegance, but lean towards the Kuhaylan in strength. Head: Delicately shaped (refined), exceptional beauty, broad and relatively short head with balanced proportions between eyes and poll, and eyes and nostrils. The head is concave in profile, frequently with apronounced "dish". Eyes are large and very expressive. Ears are small and thorn-like, as in old lithographs of Victor Adam. Neck: Harmoniously balanced with the body. Throats are well shaped and clean. Good poll setting. General Confirmation: Strong toplines, relatively short backs in comparison to Saqlawi and Hadban. Level croups of good length, good hips. Legs are clean and fine-boned."
"The Abeyyan are listed as the 6th chapter in the Abbas Pasha manuscript. Origianlly a substrain of Saqlawi. Ideally is very similar in type to the Saqlawi. Name originated when during a raid a bedouin threw off his 'beyyah' (cloak) to lighten his mare's burden, and when he finally had out distanced his pursuers, he looked back and found his Abeyyah had been carried on the high-borne tail of the mare. Thereafter the strain was named Abeyyah - for the mare who carried the abeyyah on her tail. Very showy like Saqlawi, somewhat longer back. Elegance personified. Extreme tail carriage. Head: Resembles Saqlawi, but somewhat longer skull with elongated, convex, bulging forehead. Fine muzzle and delicate nostrils. Huge eyes, dark, set deep. Strong jowls. Neck: Refined and well-shaped. Relatively long. General Conformation: Usually deep chest. Extremely long forearm. Very Straight hind legs (indicating great speed in spite of the small size of the Abeyyan, which Raswan commented were rarely over 14 hands if pure in the strain). Today's horses of this strain are taller. High tail carriage. Somewhat "saddle" or soft back. Withers extend further into the back than most other strains. Proportionally immense shoulders. Favored for polo horses because of sure footedness and agility. Long fetlocks were typical of this family strain."
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| MinHe |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 3:54:27 PM
The reason, IMO, that the Russian horses appeal to so many is that at Tersk, they never lost sight of the fact they were breeding for functionality AS WELL AS Arabian type. So as well as heads and tails you get beautifully proportioned necks and bodies in between 
Keren |
| MinHe |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 3:47:47 PM
Originally posted by TOOTHLESS
Just one more point: Lady Anne Blunt is quoted as saying she could not tell the difference between the strains. This doesn't surprise me because of the millenia that went into producing the Arabian. I think Raswan threw a spanner in the works which is still there today. I believe he was discredited by Lady W and rightly so..
I quite agree with you on that - Raswan threw a number of spanners into the works, but the problem is a lot of people believe him implicitly, so you will often find people adhering to his definitions/ideas!
As I have said, I personally do not believe there is an correlation THESE DAYS between strain and type - the modern breeding programmes have more influence than the old Bedouin ones on horses bred in the west for 100+ years.
I would take slight issue with the description of Egyptians as 'highly strung' - I would say that should be 'high-percentage NAZEER-bred Egyptians can be highly strung': ours are predominently non-Nazeer and are a bunch of seaside donkeys!
Keren |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 2:33:53 PM
She is lovely , she is tail female Rodania the same as my mares Toothless  , that makes her a Kehilet ajuz of Ibn Rodan in strain.
BTW , I didnt know that I just looked it up |
| TOOTHLESS |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 1:59:00 PM
Lindilou; Unmistakably Arabian of course; a wonderful specimen.
I just don't like hanging any other names on them except Asil or Kehilan which basically says the same thing. They are all purebred and that's where it should end. Some of course are better specimens than others, and some are having great success but "to me" are off type.
Guess this mares strain. Those who have seen her before will probably know. I know only because I've seen her pedigree.Otherwise she could belong to any strain from what I've seen. Attilio |
| kastell |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 1:45:03 PM
Hi all, I am a novice at strains & bloodlines, it's such a complex area but from what I can see it is almost impossible to categorize each group i.e. Spanish, Egyptian, Russian etc into a specific type, as most groups have very diverse bloodlines, so some Egyptians for example can look completely different to each other, e.g. a New Egyptian compared to a Babson Egyptian etc.
I think why people get put off posting on these type of threads is that it is a complex area, also some comments are taken the wrong way, when they are only meant to be constructive, plus people have different ideas to what type / form Arabians should be, each to their own I suppose! |
| Callisto |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 1:33:54 PM
This is Harlequin - over 85% Crabbet (18 years old)
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/harlequin21
This is Lily - Egyptian (5 years old)
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zahkira
Maybe not the best pics for close study/comparison, but they are photographed in the same place and both are being ridden by me. Harley is at least 2 inches shorter than Lily, but MUCH broader, and they do not feel significantly different in size to ride.
Edited for photos |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 1:04:14 PM
she is lovely , thats all you need to know |
| leiat8 |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 12:44:19 PM
i love an excuse to post pics and I'm not fussed if she gets picked at as to me she is perfect regardless.lol. but here is Hannah who is ( i believe ) 50% polish, 30 odd % crabbet and a hint of Spanish (Linda if I'm wrong please correct me.lol)
i don't know a great deal about 'types' but what i do know is that i seem to very much prefer polish/Russian from what i have seen and i think Hannah does tilt more towards the polish type over all. people with better knowledge please do comment if you think differently as like i say i don't know a great deal
sorry for the overload you can ban me from picture threads in the future hehehe |
| jaj |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 11:41:36 AM
Defintitely my cup of tea ! |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 11:29:33 AM
a Saglawi, who lives with me , seen here in his youth, I think he looks like a Saglawi of the past? but I could be wrong , pick him to pieces if you must. ( or you could be polite and say he is not your cup of tea
as he is now.
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| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 11:11:57 AM
have found what seem to be two excellent examples of the two desert bred types we are discussing ,and as they are painted by Peter Upton no one is going to take offence if anyone criticises ( unless he does )
firstly Mirage (also called Ferhan in Araba) quote: A Saglawi Jedran Dalia.
Owned by King Faisal of Iraq, sold to Lady Wentworth of Crabbet Park Stud, England, who sold him to Selby, USA. Journal of the Arab Horse Society of England, March 1935. Mirage, Mr. Selby's wonderful twenty-five-year-old white stallion, famous in his native Arabia. He stands a scant 14.2, a sturdy model with the characteristic refinements of the best of his breed. His head is a glory and his great eyes express high but gentle spirits and gracious personality
Then IBN YASHMAK; a Kehilan Ajus of the jellabi strain
Ibn Yashmak, bred by the Blunts at Sheykh Obeyd was imported to England and later sold to RAS of Egypt
hope this has helped although I doubt it will, but if I was you Angel I would go with what you like best in life
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| angelarab |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 10:55:21 AM
Angel has met most of our horses and she knows some of the %s involved but I bet if I said 'what type is Batman' she'd reply - "the big fluffy bay one that's really soppy" !!
HaHa umm yes isn't he?
JAJ thanks for that it does help |
| Jamana |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 08:15:14 AM
"I do find it extraordinary that this thread has been looked at nearly 700 times and yet there are only 18 posts on it, some of which are the same couple of people posting! Sure there must be some more opinions and knowledge out there in the murk?"
Poss people are put off posting as their comments can be construed as rude or offensive when really they are just realistic and objective.Esp as Mrs Valcq say if pictures of 'outside' horses are used.
I think jaj's cigarette packet description for down the pub is excellent and gives people (like me!) a handy link into the different strains to go on and learn more.
Are segwali body types more often eygptian and kehilian more crabbety? Or am I on completely the wrong track  |
| TOOTHLESS |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 02:06:27 AM
Just one more point: Lady Anne Blunt is quoted as saying she could not tell the difference between the strains. This doesn't surprise me because of the millenia that went into producing the Arabian. I think Raswan threw a spanner in the works which is still there today. I believe he was discredited by Lady W and rightly so..
Have a Happy and Holy Christmas: Christ is all that matters |
| TOOTHLESS |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 01:54:25 AM
Australia and UK have a STANDARD of EXCELLENCE concerning the Arabian horse. I am reliably informed by Egbert that many countries do not. People for whatever reason like what they like, and the standard is disregarded to an extent.
That the Arabian horse should have riding horse conformation is a given, but again halter and ridden classes and endurance events are dominated by different types.
100+ yrs ago Arabians were described as "stout" horses. Personally I believe we have moved away from that type, and there is a monied clique that dictates what is "typy'. I've been told to 'think out of the box' when considering a stallion for my mare.And I think that's the path many are on. Enough said |
| Mrs Vlacq |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 12:03:27 AM
Haha jaj, the murk...!
I think the problem is not lack of knowledge, but that it's very hard to explain type with the horse in front of you, let alone from a handful of pics. even harder if the pics are not yours.
Getting your eye in comes with exposure - as we all know - Angel has met most of our horses and she knows some of the %s involved but I bet if I said 'what type is Batman' she'd reply - "the big fluffy bay one that's really soppy" !!
Every day is a school day so we should all keep asking questions, and answering if we can.
L x |
| jaj |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 10:52:22 PM
I do find it extraordinary that this thread has been looked at nearly 700 times and yet there are only 18 posts on it, some of which are the same couple of people posting! Sure there must be some more opinions and knowledge out there in the murk?
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