| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rebeckah |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 8:00:09 PM
Hello everyone,
Just need some advice. Going to speak to the vet but thought I'd get your opinions as well.
My boy is 9 years old and was gelded late (3 or 4 years old I think) but he has displayed some stallion behaviour.
To start with he is massively (and I mean massively!) well endowed. It comes to his hocks. I have been around horses all my life and never seen such a large willy on a horse! As well as that, he has become visibly aroused around a mare in season on my old livery yard. He got an erection and also quite a bit of fluid came out (an ejaculation maybe?). He attempted to mount the mare but I moved him away. He does get very excited around mares and physically looks like a stallion - thick neck, large willy etc.
Today was odd. He was literally roaring, not just a neigh. I ran as fast as I could wondering what was wrong and found him galloping towards a fence over and over again, tall flagged and very pumped up. I could hear two mares a few fields over calling him. Everytime they called he would run at the fence, roaring over and over. He couldnt see the mares but was running at the fence in the direction of their voices. I managed to catch him and put him in his stable but he kept roaring for a while longer and then calmed down. The mares had stopped calling so maybe thats why he chilled out.
Anyway, any advice? I am going to ring the vet and get her opinion tomorrow. Has anyone had experience with a rig? Can they impregnate?
Many thanks in advance, all!
xxx |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kharidian |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 9:57:47 PM
I may be wrong (and am happy to be corrected!) but I understood that even if both testicles are removed, if a little of the spermatic cord is retained then this can also produce hormones (testosterone, I presume) that can account for "riggy" behaviour. Therefore, even a correctly gelded colt can display stallion-like behaviour?
Caryn |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 12:22:37 PM
Strangely men who have chosen to be castrated ( pedophiles), have still sometimes gone on to re offend because they dont always loose their desires !
As for horses although there is a leaning towards the thoughts that it is an hereditary trait, my vet says it can and WILL occur in any mammal at anytime without any hereditary history, humans too! using a mating with no history wont guarantee it wont occur. |
| Vera |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 11:35:13 AM
Sounds to me like he's 'riggy' rather than a true rig.
I knew a Section C gelding who was gelded properly at 3 who would not only get erect but actually mount and enter mares. I know that he was gelded properly because I assisted the vet. He remained riggy for his whole life. |
| marionpack |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 11:07:22 AM
I know of 2 horses that aren't rigs (both have been blood tested) but they still mount mares as if they were entire, also in dogs if a testicle has not dropped it is hereditary and if the hidden testacle is not removed it can turn cancerous in time |
| Kazzy |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 12:59:26 PM
Kastell, speaking from my own experiences and no one elses, I was told by the vet at the hospital were I took him to be gelded that normally by the time they are a yearling it should have dropped but obviously some cases would differ.
I personelly wouldnt buy a colt that had a full brother that had the *rig castration* just incase but everyone is differnet.
Mine was done 14 years ago and it cost me nearly £400 then to have him gelded and apparently it was quite straight forward and they found his missing testicle quite quickly so they didnt have to do abdomemn surgery.
The price might have got cheaper these days with more knowledge also it may have got dearer with inflation I dont know, its something I havent had to deal with since.
Janet |
| alethea |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 12:41:25 PM
I would just like to set the record straight.
The gelding in question is not a rig.
He was gelded at my yard. I personally saw the whole procedure. He had two testicles that were fully dropped. No retained testicle. And the op was performed successfully.
I have spoken to my vet who performed this op and they said there is no way he is a rig.
Hope this clears things up for you all. |
| kastell |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 7:39:00 PM
Rebeckah I hope your tests come back that he is a gelding, as I understand the operation can be quite costly! Do let us know the outcome.
A question to all is that with a colt who has only dropped 1 testicle, how long would you wait to see if the other one drops naturally? I have been told that in some breeds (Quarter horses for example) it is quite common for a colt that has only dropped one testicle not to drop the other sometimes well into his 2nd year! I know a colt who did this Paint Horse), who now has both down & siring foals. Also is it proven that a retained testicle is hereditary? If for example you were interested in buying a colt as a future stallion, who has a full brother who was operated on as a yearling for a retained testicle, would you not consider buying the colt?? |
| angel2002 |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 4:29:49 PM
Pashon2001... Rui was refering to a post from Pauline to me and a reply to her from me 
Nothing to do with anyone else's replies, just Rui telling Pauline and I to behave ourselves 
Nice to see you did the right thing Rebekah 
xx
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| Rui |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 4:28:44 PM
Donna, my comment was about some posts that I had to remove. There is nothing wrong with your posts and I am sorry if I wasn't clear about that. |
| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 4:02:52 PM
I thought Rui that part of the topic was whether they were able to sire foals, but obviously not. If you look at the original thread she asks if they can impregnate!!! Sorry won't post anything anymore. |
| Rebeckah |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 3:58:48 PM
Thanks for all the replies, it has been really reassuring to read your experiences.
I have spoken to the vet and she says that yes, he sounds like a rig for sure and that we should do some blood tests. It will cost about £200 (ouch!) so will organise once I am back from holiday.
Anubis however is loving being described as a would be stallion - the silly ponce! |
| angel2002 |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 11:43:30 AM
[ Sorry Rui 
Simple answer to this question Rebeckah is get the vet to examine your boy and take blood tests to confirm if necessary |
| Rui |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 11:30:17 AM
This topic is supposed to be about Rebeckah's boy being a rig or not. Please stay on topic.
P.S.: Edited to say that all posts that remain are obviously on topic. The issues that resulted from the original discussion, such as whether a rig can sire offspring and cryptorchidism are related to the subject and are perfectly valid posts. All posts that strayed from topic were removed. |
| Pashon2001 |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 5:12:07 PM
I have a bilateral chryptorchid shetland stallion here that has (I would hasten to add before I got him) sired his own sister, so rigs DO sire foals!!!
Before I get shot down he lived miles from any other horses with just his mother and a female donkey, so he was the father. |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 3:15:49 PM
Hey, come on girls I think we need our resident freindly and knowledgable vet to straighten things out here , come on Lisa where are you? |
| Pauline |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 2:58:54 PM
angel2002
Pauline - All I will say is I am VERY surprised at the actions of your vet with regards to the way he gelded your colt!
My lad went into a very reputable Vet Hospital where he was put under a GA, my vet spent a long time trying to find the second testicle (His words "The second one was smaller than my little finger nail")and was not able to find it.He then removed the first testicle which again his words (The first one was extra large)After spending 5 days at the vets he then spent another 6 weeks on box rest (The operation was an abdominal one)
As a colt he was calm and gentle and I was extremely upset that I had to have him gelded.
The second testicle dropped some 3 months later .As the larger testicle was removed there was still testosterone in the body and this made the second testicle grow. As I said he was again gelded but this time in the stable. My vet never charged me for the second operation.
My vet was as upset as I was.
If the second testicle had been sitting the wrong side of the inguinal ring my vet would have bought it down and secured it in the scrotum (AS we do in little human boys)
At no stage was there any history before OR after that indicated that the condition was hereditary.
Angel2002
Before you criticize my vet I would say you should check the facts.
Pauline |
| angel2002 |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:37:28 AM
Pauline - All I will say is I am VERY surprised at the actions of your vet with regards to the way he gelded your colt!
Quarabian - A rig with an undecended testicle CAN sire a foal
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| Kazzy |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:33:34 AM
Any half decent horse vet would know not to geld a colt with only one testicle dropped!!!!!!!!
My gelding was a *rig colt* and it was heridotory, he had a half brother with the same and from what I heard a few others aswell but I didnt know at the time anyway thats a different story
Rig colts are not normally seen anymore like I said a half decent vet would send them off to hospital to have the proscedure done because in most cases they are stuck up inside and need removing under a general and not a local.
Get your vet to blood test him and you will know then.
I am sure he is probably playing *billy big balls* and *look at me* my gleding did this a while ago with an Arab mare who is at livery on the other side of the lane and he stopped doing it when I went to him and went off with his mates again!!!
Janet |
| pinkvboots |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:13:32 AM
I would have to agree with Suelin on this one, my Gelding was cut at 4 I know both were removed as I held him throughout the procedure and saw both thrown away.
Arabi is 6 now and he still can behave like a stallion especially when near other geldings, he can be quite aggressive to them so I have to be very careful who he is turned out with, he will also do the roaring at other horses if they invade his space.
He seems to be happier around mares than geldings I don't know maybe he feels threatened by them? but he is mainly turned out on his own as he cant be trusted, although he was turned out with my mare without any trouble.
I suppose it wont hurt to get a vet to check his not a rig just to be on the safe side, but I would be inclined to think he has just not forgotten to behave like a stallion because he was cut late. |
| Suelin |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:27:41 AM
Geldings that are cut late don't necessarily forget what they had just because it's no longer there. I've seen this a few times and none of these horses were a rig at all. One gelding who was a stallion until he was 9 used to regularly cover his mare companion because he knew what to do but she never minded. They were just having a jolly I think.
One other got very aggressive with people when he was out with mares as he felt the need to protect them I think. The owner had to rethink that practise and turn him out on his own for everyone's safety. I know for a fact that he wasn't a rig because I was there when he was gelded and threw 2 away!!
There is a blood test if you are concerned but it sounds to me as if he is just doing what he enjoys doing because he can. Lucky chap, all the perks and no responsibility afterwards!! |
| Quarabian |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 11:13:58 PM
I had a rig. He was my wonderful riding partner for many years after his op to remove a large testicle from his abdomen. The vet who castrated him thought he had taken a small testicle from one side and a normal one from the other.
To dispell some mis understandings.... A rig who has an undescended testicle cannot sire foals. The testicle is usually external and cool so the sperm are killed by the heat inside the horse. He will, as you aware be very interested in mares though and can have an erection.
If the horse was castrated by a vet who failed to carry out the operation successfully you can claim from his insurance to have the horse operated upon. ( This was the case for my rig )
I would recommend that you contact the person you bought him from and find out who did the job. Your 'rig' can then have blood tests to assertain if indeed he is a rig or a very precocious gelding.
Do not despair. My gelding became a wonderful well mannered boy and love of my life.
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| basbob |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 10:25:43 PM
My boy still gets an erection around the girls, licks their hocks and rubs his head around their quarters. He has a thick neck and displays a lot of "manly" behaviour. But he never quite delivers the goods, (much to the mares disappointment). He was gelded at 2 and a bit was stabled with stallions doing their job. It may be learnt behaviour. My chap has never quite mounted any of the girls despite his intentions. Knowing where you are try the vets in Hawkhurst. |
| Pauline |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 10:12:30 PM
angel2002
I DO understand what CRYPTORCHIDISM is.
In my horses case the second one did drop but sometime later Thus was NOT A congenital defect. |
| angel2002 |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 9:52:25 PM
CRYPTORCHIDISM (UNDESCENDED TESTICLES) IN THE HORSE
Overview
Cryptorchidism means "hidden testes" (crypt = hidden, orchid = testes), and is used to describe the condition in which one (unilateral) or both (bilateral) testicles do not descend normally. Common terms for animals with this condition include rig, ridgling, original, or high flanker. In a cryptorchid horse, one or both testicles, which form in the body, do not migrate into the scrotum. It may be retained anywhere from the abdomen to the inguinal canal, the normal passage route into the scrotum. Prevalence of left and right testicular retention is nearly equal, though retained left testes are more often in the abdomen while the right retained testicle is more often in the inguinal canal. Although a testicle is undescended, it still produces male hormones leading to characteristic stallion behavior. Unilateral cryptorchids are usually fertile; while bilateral cryptorchids are generally sterile. All breeds of horses may be exhibit cryptorchidism, but there is a higher frequency in Quarter Horses, Saddlebreds, Percherons, and ponies. The condition is considered heritable, so affected animals should be castrated to help prevent continuation of this congenital defect as well as for safety reasons.
Causes
A single cause of equine cryptorchidism has not been established, and contributing causes remain obscure. Based on available information, the condition is likely the result of a complex combination of genetic, hormonal, and mechanical factors. As indicated above, the condition is overrepresented in some breeds, supporting heritability of the condition, and many breed associations do not allow registration of cryptorchids.
Signs, Symptoms and Differential Diagnoses
Cryptorchid horses usually exhibit standard stallion behavior, but lack one or both scrotal testicles. Immature horses with the condition may be undetected until they are examined just prior to routine castration. Mature horses with no detectable testes that behave like stallions may be bilateral cryptorchids, unilateral cyptorchids with the descended testes removed, or geldings with stallion-like behavior. Monorchidism, complete absence of one testicle, is rare in the horse, and should only be considered after extensive testing and, potentially, surgical exploration.
Diagnosis
Typically, cryptorchidism can be diagnosed in horses with a clear history of no surgery by a combination of external and rectal palpation. Tranquilization allows deep external palpation of the inguinal canals as well as a thorough rectal exam, and will increase the chances that inguinal testes will drop down enough to be palpated. Additionally, ultrasonographic examination may be employed to locate a testicle within the abdomen or inguinal canal.
Diagnosis of cryptorchidism in horses with incomplete background information or absence of palpable testicles is typically accomplished with blood tests. The male hormone testosterone is measured in the blood before and after administration of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). Stallions and cryptorchids have higher levels of testosterone and levels of the hormone increase after hCG administration. Castrated horses have low levels of testosterone and levels do not increase with hCG. The test is approximately 95% accurate in identifying cryptorchids. A test that does not require hCG administration is blood levels of conjugated estrogen levels. Typically, levels are higher in horses with testicular tissue, and a single measurement can often identify cryptorchids. The test detects cryptorchids about 95% of the time, but is unreliable in horses younger than 3 years and in donkeys. Both tests should be performed if either is inconclusive.
Normal and Cryptorchid Development and Anatomy
Testicles normally develop inside the abdomen next to the kidney in the fetus. During normal development, each testicle descends through the inguinal canal to the scrotum, guided by a ligamentous structure called the gubernaculum. Just prior to or shortly after birth, the gubernaculum shortens, normal testicles descend to a permanent location in the scrotum, and rings at the base of the inguinal canal, called vaginal rings, permanently constrict, so that only the spermatic cord, the blood supply to the testicle, can pass through. In the cryptorchid, the testicle does not descend to its final place in the scrotum, but remains in the abdomen or the inguinal canal
Treatment Options
Treatment for cryptorchidism is surgical removal of both testicles. Removal of the normal testicle prior to removal of the cryptorchid testicle can complicate location of the cryptorchid testicle. Additionally, “hemi-castrated” horses retain their stallion-like behavior and reproductive capabilities, though a lack of identifiable testicles makes them appear like geldings. This creates a potentially dangerous situation. For these reasons, a normal testicle should never be removed prior to location and removal of the cyptorchid testicle.
There are two general surgical options for removal of undescended testicles, a standard surgical approach with the horse on its back under general anesthesia or a laparoscopic approach, often with the horse standing, but heavily sedated and the surgical area desensitized with local anesthetic. There several surgical approaches that may be used with the horse under general anesthesia. The approach used depends upon the preference of the surgeon and the location of the testicle based on the examination before surgery. All of the approaches require an incision, generally on the underside of the belly around the area of the scrotum. The testicle is located and manually removed from the abdomen or inguinal canal. A laparoscopic surgical approach requires the use of a camera and specialized equipment. With the horse standing, the abdomen is distended with sterile gas, and a camera is inserted into the abdomen through a small incision in the flank. Once the testicle is located, further small incisions are made to pass instruments into the abdomen and remove the testicle. With either approach, meticulous attention is paid to ensure that the blood supply to the testicle is securely closed off prior to removal to prevent potential bleeding.
Postoperative Care
Initial care after surgery usually consists of stall rest with hand walking. Unlimited exercise is gradually resumed after approximately 10 days to two weeks. Any sutures are typically removed around 7 days after surgery. Following laparoscopic surgery, the aftercare period is much reduced and horses can resume their activities after the first 72 hours. As with any castration procedure, appropriate handling and socialization measures should be taken after surgery. Though hormone levels dissipate almost immediately after testicle removal, learned behaviors often take a period of time and training to change.
Potential Complications Following Treatment
Complications are rare for cryptorchid surgery, but they may include anesthetic complications, excessive hemorrhage, bowel damage, infection, post-operative swelling, incision breakdown, and continued stallion behavior.
When to Seek Veterinary Surgical Advice
Identification and surgical removal of undescended testicles should be performed by a trained veterinary surgeon. The testicles are often smaller than normal and may not be formed correctly. Given the relatively large, crowded area in which they may be located, the job of finding and safely removing a wayward testicle can be a challenge.
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| Pauline |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 9:22:03 PM
I would disagree that a rig / gelding with a hidden testicle is hereditary, my colt had a hidden testicle but there was never any history at all.
When he was operated on and gelded the second one was so small that it could not be found.The testicle that was removed was extra large. Once that one was removed a few months later the second one dropped my vet then removed the second one as a standing procedure in the yard.
Pauline |
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