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T O P I C R E V I E W
lottieherts
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 4:43:30 PM Can any of you folk inform me of the current 'protocol' of breeding to SCID carriers? I am not considering breeding to one, however I wondered whether all horses must be compulsory tested now before being bred to a carrier and if the horse was also a carrier, whether the breeding would then not be allowed to proceed (ie the breed registry would refuse to register the resulting foal in order to deter carrier x carrier breedings). I would like to think all breeders are responsible and would test a horse for SCID before being bred and would not breed to a carrier if their horse was a carrier, but I was interested to know if there were breed registry enforced guidelines on this.
13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
LYNDILOU
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 08:36:32 AM I have a colt ( Royal Justice) who I have just had tested (awaiting the results) for scids and CA, if he is a carrier I will put his name on the list. His sire is a CA carrier, something I didnt know at the time of mating, however his bloodline is far too precious to exclude from the gene pool.
lisa rachel
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 9:38:24 PM Wow! this is the first ever time that I have read a comment by Minhe that I don't agree with! Sorry, but I don't think carrier x carrier matings can ever be justified. I believe that every horse (mares and stallions) should be tested, that being a carrier should be no stigma, but should simply preclude from breeding with another carrier. This way no SCID foal would ever be born again, what is more we would not be ,in genetic terms, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I do agree with Minhe in as much as that to exclude all carriers from breeding AT ALL would dangerously reduce the gene pool. As she quite rightly says, SCID is not the only serious genetic disease of Arabs, there is quite a little list of them, CA being just one. Cheers Lisa
pintoarabian
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 8:18:29 PM It is my personal opinion that it is irresponsible to breed, knowingly, SCID carrier to SCID carrier. Keren, you are right, not all foals bred of such a mating will be SCID affected. The statistical probability of breeding a SCID affected foal is 25%, another 25% will be clear of SCID and the other 50% will be SCID carriers. Therefore breeders only have a 1:4 chance of breeding a foal from such a mating that will be SCID clear and a 1:4 chance that the foal will certainly die. I do not think that these odds are good enough to take that chance. Perhaps some matings, to date, have not produced any SCID affected foals but it is cavalier to believe that that luck will not run out. Maybe I just care too much about the welfare of ALL the foals that I am instrumental in helping to conceive. That is something for which I make no apologies.
lottieherts
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 2:20:41 PM I would not wish SCID carriers 'culled',one of the most influential stallions of modern times was a carrier, the owners ensured every mare was tested clear before being allowed to breed to him, just as it should be! I do not see how or why one would ever take the risk in breeding carrier x carrier. I am well aware not every foal of this combination would be affected by SCID however in my book its a risk not worth taking.
It is, as always, up to breeders to be responsible and test their stock before breeding and asking stallion owners if their horses are carriers.
honey
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 11:05:18 AM my stallion is not tested for scid i asked my vet a few years ago when doing his license and he tested for eva instead not knowing much about arabs. me not knowing fully at the time about scid either. however its not been a problem yet as hes only got 3 halfbred foals on the ground. however i will have him tested before he sires any pure bred foals. o think anyone breeding a pure bred should lest for it as its heart breaking to have a dead foal after a year of hard work, and as devastating for the mares as well.
MinHe
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 10:44:57 PM
Originally posted by lottieherts
Thanks Keren.
Is it then the responsibility of the stallion owner to ensure all those looking to use him are well aware that he is a carrier or is it up to the mare owner to 'ask the question'?
Personally I feel it should be 'legislation' that every horse that is a carrier is advertised as such, therefore leaving no grey area. It would also be beneficial for the breed if carrier x carrier breedings were prohibited. I am surprised they are not.
Always ask - sadly we know there are stallions out there whose SCID status is known by their owners but they are not willing to share that information.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you that carrier/carrier matings should be banned - not every mating of such will produce an affected foals, and indeed there are plenty of instances of 2 carriers never producing an affected foal at all, even with repeated breedings. It must not be forgotten that the horse first identified as a SCID carrier was a successful and popular sire and it was not until he was in his 20s that the problem became evident.
We now know that there are SCID-free horses which are CA carriers - if we 'cull' (by whatever method) all SCID carriers, who's to say we may not end up with a limited genepool population in which an equally serious problem is endemic? Unlike other breeds, we cannot outcross - IMO, a policy of managed risk is the one we should follow until we have in-utero testing for SCID, which I personally believe will be a future step in controlling this condition.
Keren
barbara.gregory
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 9:39:28 PM There is no obligation to disclose the SCID status of your stallion, if indeed you know it, to owners of visiting mares. However, I think morally one should tell mare owners if the stallion is a carrier and insist that the mare is tested before she can use your stallion.
I have 3 stallions, non of which are at public stud presently, and all three are SCID clear. However, if any of them were carriers then I would consider whether their good points outweighed thar SCID status, and, if not, have that one gelded. Unless a stallion is tip top then if he is a carrier there is likely to be a better non carrier people can use.
Barbara
Scarlet Arabian
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 9:20:50 PM i can,t not agree more pintoarabian well said
why not have the testing done as part of the arabian horse society licensing???? i know you do not have to have a license for pure bred to pure bred but any owner worth their salt would want their stallion to have one i am sure, thus making the testing as part of that would make sense and also could be documented for all to see, so people can make an informed choice!!!!
abby
pintoarabian
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 8:59:28 PM I agree that costs are getting out of hand but I would certainly not like to run the risk of breeding a SCID affected foal and have it die on me after all the financial, time and emotional investment that comes with the decision to breed any foal. SCID affected foals can be prevented by not breeding SCID carrier to SCID carrier. It's as easy as that but you have to know whether the sire and dam are carriers first.
lottieherts
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 7:44:40 PM I could not agree more Pintoarabian!
I have never bred any Arab without having them SCID tested. I know it seems there are never ending costs with breeding/registering Arabians, however, as I said, I am surprised the AHS have not requested compulsory testing for breeding stock/prohibiting carrier x carrier breeding, as surely it is for the benefit of the breed as a whole?
pintoarabian
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 7:24:28 PM In an ideal world, stallion AND mare owners would do the responsible thing and have their horses tested. That way, the status of all breeding animals would be known and then, as Keren said, breeders could make informed decisions. At the moment, many breeders are playing Russian Roulette by not knowing the SCID status of both parents. We have had all of our breeding stock tested and all are SCID clear. I am not advocating compulsory testing but responsible breeders surely wouldn't want to run the risk of breeding a SCID affected foal, would they?
lottieherts
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 7:14:10 PM Thanks Keren.
Is it then the responsibility of the stallion owner to ensure all those looking to use him are well aware that he is a carrier or is it up to the mare owner to 'ask the question'?
Personally I feel it should be 'legislation' that every horse that is a carrier is advertised as such, therefore leaving no grey area. It would also be beneficial for the breed if carrier x carrier breedings were prohibited. I am surprised they are not.
MinHe
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 6:17:45 PM
Originally posted by lottieherts
Can any of you folk inform me of the current 'protocol' of breeding to SCID carriers? I am not considering breeding to one, however I wondered whether all horses must be compulsory tested now before being bred to a carrier and if the horse was also a carrier, whether the breeding would then not be allowed to proceed (ie the breed registry would refuse to register the resulting foal in order to deter carrier x carrier breedings). I would like to think all breeders are responsible and would test a horse for SCID before being bred and would not breed to a carrier if their horse was a carrier, but I was interested to know if there were breed registry enforced guidelines on this.
There is no regulation at all in place in the UK on SCID or CA, it is up to you as an individual to take responsibility and make educated decisions as you see fit
this is the first ever time that I have read a comment by Minhe that I don't agree with! 
