| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SueB |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 12:39:40 PM
I understand from looking at the new 2009 Blue Book on the ECAHO site, that our C Shows have to have two DC's (we know that), but one of them has to be a vet?
If this is enforced I can see an end to most of our C shows in this country. I know that our local Agricultural Shows, Devon County and Bath & West are sitting back wondering if it is worth continuing with Arab Classes full stop.
The high costs to bring in judges and the DC's is crippling them. The lower entries do not cover these basic costs.
I wonder if any of you out there who like to support these two Ag shows would along with me write to the Show sec and ask if they would perhaps declassify both shows to non C status but still continue as just affiliated Arab shows? They will most likely get the same or even more entries to them if they are not C status.
It would be a shame to lose two of our best Ag shows so close to each other.
Declassification seems to me the best solution while times are hard, what do others think?
|
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Roseanne |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 1:29:38 PM
I don't know who's opted for ECAHO getting their hands on ridden classes but I also think that would be a complete disaster. ECAHO appears to be there for the benefit of a very few at the top of in-hand showing. I'd like to see an international Arab organisation that goes all out to promote the Arab horse at all levels.
Sue, it's always been like that - ridden classes have been placed away from the stands and those supporting the ridden horses groom in the main. It will be interesting to see what happens at the Nationals this year if the ridden classes are in the main ring. HOYS shows that there is a big fan base for the ridden Arab.
As far as county shows go (I am only talking ridden Arabs here as I don't show in-hand) you have a good Arab that will perform obediently and with concentration with the razmatazz of a busy, varied county show going on all around it. Not many horses will do that so I do think these are superior - AND they give prize money!! The only problem is, if you have a nice ridden Arab, and you have a limited budget, you're likely to go to shows where you may stand a chance of qualifying for HOYS. It's very expensive to do a ridden show these days! |
| CINDERS |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 12:25:30 PM
Be careul what you wish for - I am told that ECAHO would love to get their sticky fingers on our ridden classes and that would be a complete disaster.
Yvonne |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 11:24:17 AM
Many of the recent winning in-hand went on to be great HOYS qualifiers so the fact is we need both as Sue says .
What is wrong is that ECAHO is an in-hand organisation therefore we need an equally powerful body to balance things in favour of all disciplines .
Nearly every Arab can find a job to do.Yes/No?
At County level we most certainly need more entries in all disciplines .Having with my horses won Supreme at many county shows it feels a great honour somehow .
Collective brainstorming needed
|
| SueB |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 10:26:53 AM
My original post is really quite a selfish one in that I am trying to encourage other breeders to write to those two Agricultural shows and pledge our loyalty, even if some of us don't actually show anymore.
To drop back to being just a county show affiliated to the AHS in my mind is still a show worth entering. Winning at County level used to be very well thought of and often proudly thought of. Unfortunately something has gone wrong, I feel not so much with the system, but with those that show in-hand.
I appreciate all that ECAHO does in trying to stamp out abuse at the big rated shows, using a vet is one idea.
What is a shame is that we in the UK again seem like the poor relations, in the very sense of the word poor, we can't afford to have a vet at all C shows and now have to ask for some sort of leniency in this ruling from ECAHO, which actually is a good ruling.
I don't know the answer only in finding a rich sponsor who will support the costs at a C show of finding a vet.
I have yet to see what the European shows are like as a competitor and this year is my first venture. If they can do it then I suppose we have to find a way or drop some of our C shows back to just being affiliated.
We have to retrain those that compete in-hand that showing your lovely pure bred at a non C show is not a crime and does give you reward in more ways than you first imagine. Winning at County Level is and should be applauded by all.
I've added this bit in reply to Alistair, I know how much the ridden arab is needed, wanted and admired, but at probably the biggest show this year on Sunday, the fantastic ridden classes were huge, all supported so very well, with very high quality horses. Great.
But where is the audience? only those to do with each ridden horse seemed to be watching.
If you look at the in-hand rings they are buzzing with crowds and lookers, no screaming or shouting either!!! very well behaved lot too.
If you were to have a dedicated magazine for the ridden arab it may well only sell to those that ride, thus limiting it. Ridden and in-hand must not be divided. One needs the other always.
The arab horse can and does do both.
My last post on this subject |
| Roseanne |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 10:08:57 AM
I agree Alistair in that it seems that in-hand and ridden showing with Arabs are two different sports and it would be awful if some elitist rules for one affect the other detrimentally...
I can't see the logic in anyone trying to impose/refine rules that reduce the numbers attracted. It is making a breed that is alrelady seen as 'questionable' in the wider horse world even more outrageous and remote from reality. It's certainly not good for improvement/restoration of the Arab's good worldwide reputation and popularity. |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 09:55:48 AM
There is also a clear distinction between Ridden and In-Hand
C shows make no difference to the Ridden classes which come under the AHS .
We should also focus on seperate Ridden shows and publications . |
| alistair leslie |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 09:37:45 AM
You have raised a very big subject Sue in that the structure of ECAHO and its grading of shows for qualification is now a sham.
Only the winner can now qualify
For what?
A european show where we can predict the winner already?
The effect is we are all chasing rainbows
Much better to have our own UK structure and lots of local and regional shows
We have enough judges /showgrounds /handlers /riders /Horses to be independant of this marketing exercise which benefits a handful of people .
Many words have been expressed on cruelty and stress in the ring so it is understanable that a dc /vet should be in the collecting ring ,but I feel the answer may be to have a referee to liase with clients /stewards /dc's and organisers .
Quick,effective and fair .
The main thing is to look frward to how we can improve things and create a market.
One ingredient in the mix is very important .
Handlers/trainers have to make a living and it is becoming more difficult to do so with the low entries .
A more level playing field would generate a full days pay for our people . |
| BabsR |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 1:46:57 PM
Agree Pat.....Amateur home produced classes are getting ever more popular and Show Organisers need to take note.
Our own BNFOY show has ever increasing entries in our eight AHP foal classes. The classes offer opportunity to exhibitors new to showing (our future Breeders) a chance to compete on a level playing field. Such classes also mean that amateurs do not have to compete against the professionals, which is an incentive for the novice exhibitor, and a good learning curve.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
| pat ww |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 09:10:50 AM
Its a good thing now that so many of the 'bigger' shows are doing amateur classes alongside the main classes. it actually gives the true amateur two bites of the cherry, mainstream and against their peers.
larger shows that don't take note it is becoming popular. |
| lisa b |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:33:38 PM
i understand that pat,and in past years we have done just that... but in the last 5-10 years its changed so much.. face judging or if you have a certain hair colour or your horse is by a certain "in" stallion gets to us all in the end... |
| pat ww |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:00:29 PM
Our geographically closest affiliated shows were both "C" shows, so we went regardless, and did OK for rank amateurs. Our 3 year old colt got internationally qualified first time out, shown by my 17 year old son who was a complete novice. We were above a class winner from the national show, so if you don't enter you will never know how well you COULD have done. |
| lisa b |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 7:43:26 PM
i do think that alot of us.."amateurs" are put off going to devon /bth etc since the c show status as we can never get passed the so called "professionals"... so perhaps our dwindling enteries are our own faults??? ..just a thought!!! |
| kimzi |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 3:30:26 PM
But if they are declassified then does that not mean prize money can be offered (maybe i am wrong) that would see more people attending i would have thought. |
| pat ww |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 09:29:25 AM
forgot to add, even if a "C" show is de-classified, entry fees will probably not drop to reflect the lower running costs.
and even if they were, the OTHER costs of showing, namely the cost of travel, could be the major factor limiting entries and is outside the ability of a shows committee to rectify. |
| pat ww |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 09:27:07 AM
I went to a course for preliminary introduction to being a DC, probably over 10 years ago, it was a very interesting day, but as far as I know, non of us who attended were invited to progress to another, and yet we were not 'tested' on anything we had learned that day.
I believe for far too long into the 21st century we have 19th century attitudes to keeping an exclusive club, similar to the very wasteful drop out rate of people who get fed up of the hoops to be jumped through to become a judge.
With so few DC's and no high profile efforts being made to encourage more of us to do it, the ECAHO ruling if we cannot get it amended, I can for see as SueB has said the demise of our "C" shows.
I am not sure that de-classifying some shows though is the answer. When we at the north wales group enquired about "C" status some years back we had hoops to jump through, minimum entries to be achieved etc.
if some current "C" shows are no longer attaining the numbers then they should be de-classified anyway? otherwise "C" shows can become a mockery, a handful of entries where everyone comes away with a rosette.
having watched a few live stream European shows, was surprised at HOW FEW entries there were.
If we get less qualifiers for Towerlands, will it to get less entries and be a joke?
There is no easy answer to any of this especially in todays economic climate, but the one thing i think we all have to be agreed upon is NOT having to have a vet as a DC. If a show has a vet "on call" that should be enough to satisfy any requirement, as and when necessary after the DC's have IN THEIR WIDER EXPERIENCE thought it appropriate to call in a second opinion. |
| MinHe |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 11:40:24 PM
Originally posted by Debbie
Interestly Jane, some secretaries find it difficult to secure DC's for their show for one reason or another. I have 3 DC appointments this year and travelled over 200 miles to DC at one of them. So as there are so few of us anyway, this new ruling will cause havoc (me thinks!)
I'm here and willing but no-one's asked me this year
Keren |
| Sadika |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 4:17:33 PM
We are quite lucky in the N/W as our DCs are fairly local. ECAHO seem to dream up rules without consulting those who will have to attempt to implement them ... ECAHO want Gold, Silver, Bronze medal winners now - preferred to Champion/Reserve/Reserve Reserve ... not sure how many show secs have picked up on that one! |
| Debbie |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 3:44:00 PM
Interestly Jane, some secretaries find it difficult to secure DC's for their show for one reason or another. I have 3 DC appointments this year and travelled over 200 miles to DC at one of them. So as there are so few of us anyway, this new ruling will cause havoc (me thinks!)
And in fact I had forgotten but one of the ECAHO DC's I counted in my last post has already resigned this year making my tally 9! |
| Vygoda |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 3:01:55 PM
Thanks Debbie.
There aren't that many DC's to go round, eh? And wow, expensive to go on the course plus the flights! |
| Debbie |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 12:45:45 PM
Jane, There was a course just this month for DC's to upgrade to ECAHO. They were funding the hotel but you had to pay the flights and the course fee of £200+ once you had the approval of your society.
This will greatly limit the quantity of DC's who will be able to officiate if one has to be a vet and the other an ECAHO DC as according to my 2008 DC list there are only 24 in the UK and only 10 of those are ECAHO DC's! |
| Micky |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 09:07:52 AM
This may be a silly question, but how much does it cost the society to be a member of Ecaho? |
| Vygoda |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 08:04:03 AM
A couple of years ago, I applied to ECAHO to become a DC. I was told that to have approval, I would have to go on a course AND shadow an approved DC at a show. At the time, there were only 2 ECAHO approved DC's in the UK??!!
And I know a vet in this part of the world who is an approved DC. He is a good vet but he doesn't have a clue about shows, nor could he care less. And anyway, how many vets would be prepared to go through these procedures?
It seems that ECAHO hasn't taken on board what is happening in England so representation to them is a step in the right direction.
|
| azeer |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 10:04:38 PM
This topic was discussed at the AHS Council Meeting yesterday, it was felt that the UK is different to the rest of Europe and we hold more C shows than the rest of Europe! It was suggested that representation on 2 or 3 areas in the blue book should be made to Ecaho. Ziadomira it would be best to speak to Finn who will update you, I am sure, once the minutes are drafted. |
| kimzi |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:41:33 PM
We went to a non classified agricultural show with affiliated arab classes last year, the lack of C status did not put us off, we had a fab day out, a red rosette and a few quid to put back into the kitty, thats what i call well worth it. |
| Ziadomira |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:23:40 PM
I have been querying this for some time with ECAHO. I am not sure they know exactly what they have done.
I asked how a non ECAHO DC could become an ECAHO list DC bearing in mind that few shows having to get an ECAHO DC and a vet will go to the expense of getting a scond DC from the non ECAHO group. They have almost made them redundant.
Barbara Pfistner suggested I contact Finn Guinness and now that the Wessex C Show is over I will do this and ask him if there would be any advantage if getting the AHS to lobby ECAHO on the behalf of National C Shows to get this ruling waived for this type of show. I am not sure it would succeed for the C International Shows.
Zia |
