| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| khira |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 12:04:38 AM
Hi everyone - has anyone any advice pls?
I recently bought a 7 yr old gelding from a dealer in the Cheshire - girl who showjumps and sells horses to pay for it - i was totally honest that I was a nervous rider - wanted something well schooled that with tution (for my own riding) I could do a bit of local dressage on, as well as fun rides, bit of cross country and general hacking - must be good in traffic as i can be nervous in traffic and on a busy road. Suitable for a novice too as my fella is learning to ride.
Anyway horse turned out to be not good in traffic and scared of a lot of stuff - with a strong confident rider he prob would have been ok but I back off so he just took the Michael out of me.
I asked for my money back as had been totally honest I was nervous etc and he had also bolted with me after spooking at a tent out hacking - managed to get him to come back in end but he was not suitable for what i had asked for.
Anyway she agreed swap him but would not give me my money back.
Found a new horse that she was adamant he was perfect even tho had only had him in 2 weeks.
Tried him in school but when I asked to try him out in open field etc she wouldn't saying too much time etc. She took him in a field on the farm and he seemed quiet enough. Was well schooled and I jumped him so said ok.
Had him vetted - another 200 quid as had paid for first horse to be vetted, teeth rasped AND vaccinations started.
Got him home. First time I hacked him out he stopped out after about 15 mins - refusing to go either forwards or towards home. Leg, whip, other horse and rider who was out with me leaving him did nothing. Wouldn't move other than backing up then stopping again. Had get off and lead him in the end all way home as i had got back on again but he just did it again 5 mins later.
I put this down to another new home and gave him a couple extra days settle in.
Rode him in school - spooked at something - running backwards - managed get him look at it then he was fantastic the rest of the schooling session.
Took him out tonight. Was having a great time until we had stop to let a car past - he is not scared of cars but did NOT want to stand still. Started shaking his head up and down then backing all over the place. Firm leg on and sharp tap with the whip and he moved forward. Still messing around all over place when asking him to stand so car let me walk past. Then had to stand again to let some big dogs past. Again would not stand still. Starts backing up, ignoring my leg, and whip just makes him start to run backwards. Dogs by this time long gone but he wont go forward - if i ask him with my leg he backs up, tried turning him - still wont stop and whip makes him worse. Was on edge of bank with decent sized drop and he doesn't have a clue what behind him so had jump off him quick before he fell down the thing!
I stood with him for 5 mins as by this time I was shaking and near tears - after calmed down led him down the path. I then got on him and he was good as gold. I didn;t ask him to stand again but just walked and a bit of trot home.
He isn't strong and is well schooled. Normally goes nicely off leg and stops when asked. But the backing up is totally uncalled for and dangerous in my opinion as there is loads of big drops and wire etc on the sides out hacking and this doesn;t stop him. He has no manners if being asked to stand (in school will stand fine - its out hacking the problem occurs) but i'm a nervous rider and dont know how to handle it.
Has anyone any advice. I've tried calling the dealer and text her asking her advice but she isn;t calling me back or texting a reply.
Should i stick with it and do you think this is a problem that can be solved or what should I do??.
I thought buying a new horse was supposed to be exciting but this is turning out to be a nightmare.
Any advice really appreciated and sorry for the essay of a post!
Thanks
Nicola |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| radfan |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 6:22:22 PM
LOL deebee! Good news though, happy hunting for your next horse. I would really take my time as others have said. Visit the horse you may have your eye on 2,3,4,5 times, any reputable seller will not mind that as it will be important to them that the match is right. Enjoy! |
| deebee |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 2:44:58 PM
to be honest I'd go for getting it all back; you wouldn't have done the vettings if she'd been honest and YOU have improved the horse by the work you've had done; she can sell him now as vaccinated etc; I'm no lawyer but I bet a claim would go your way. You could 'insist' on all of it, threaten court, and probably get a good % of it. Well within your rights, I think. She's already on the back foot, giving you the money back is to try to get her out of the sh*t; she knows she's in the wrong.
WHY would you want to give her a goodwill gesture anyway? I know what gesture I'd give her! |
| precious |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 2:21:47 PM
thats good news, just hope horse finds someone that can help him.
Keep looking for the right horse, and good advice by others, visit it and ride more than once, any good seller wont mind you doing that and they should be happy knowing its going to the right home x
Fingers crossed |
| jacki |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 1:58:03 PM
id ask for everything back! i think technically you could charge interest too and if it got to court you would win but its agro! ask for money back and vettings as said above you wouldnt have vetted them had you been told the truth. id then knock off the vet stuff and teeth as a goodwill gesture as its non essential (Not to responsible owners but you know what im saying)
goodluck looking for a new horse, try ridingschools and ponyclub they often have allrounders avaliable! |
| alison |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 1:37:11 PM
It's great news that she has agreed to return your money, you could as for the extra money you have spent but I think it is highly unlikely you will get it. Anyway good luck with finding a new friend take you time and ask to see a horse a couple of times if you really like him and think he is the one for you.
Ali |
| sarahjo |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 1:35:32 PM
That's good news!
I would try get the money back for the vettings as you wouldn't have had them vetted if you knew the horses were not suitable for you. Whether or not you'll get the money back, don't know?
Not sure about the other things??
Hope you find the horse you've always dreamed off - happy horse hunting!
Sarah |
| khira |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 1:28:13 PM
Hi everyone
Thanks again for all your advice. Really really appreciated. Good news - She has agreed to give me my money back. One thing tho - I have paid over £600 for vettings, urgent teeth rasping, restart vaccinations, 2 wormers, transport etc.
Should I be claiming for that too - or just take the money for the horse itself.
Thanks again.
Nicola |
| primrosepye |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 10:11:59 PM
This is a really sad thread, and with some great advice.
From the perspective of a fellow borderline nervous rider - get your money back, dont feel bad about it, admit your limitations - not everyone has the time for a project, and look for a new horse - if need be a different breed/type. Nerves can be a horrible thing to cope with and confidence can disapear in an instant. A horse that needs to rely on the rider for support can become very dangerous if he feels he is on his own - there are plenty of good honest horses out there who know their job and will take care of the rider, letting you boost your confidence and ability.
Dont be put off by this last horse - everything happens for a reason, i am sure this path is leading you to your perfect companion.
Prim |
| Mad arab rider |
Posted - 07 Jun 2009 : 8:57:14 PM
Stay strong, stick to your guns and fight to get your money back. It really does sound as though the horse is too much for you. Don't make the same mistake I did. I almost never ride now, cos the mare I had on loan until March last year, sapped all my confidence. She also napped incredibly badly, and like yours did it on the way home just as much as on the way out. She would stand for cars, but if she had a paddy about anything, she'd run backwards, leap up or down banks, shy and the last straw was rodeoing with me. If I'd listened to my head and not my heart, I'd have given her back a year before I did. Don't get me wrong it broke my heart to let her go, I cried my eyes out having to tell her owner, but the last time I rode her I ended up in tears half way around the ride, and she'd not even done anything on that ride, just the worry of what she may do was too much. I still see her every time I go to my yard, as she only lives next door, I still love her and go and give her a cuddle every now and again, but don't want to ride her. My own horse is a 21yr old cob mare, who is a saint, but I hardly ever ride her, leaving her for my OH to exercise.
Cherie |
| deebee |
Posted - 07 Jun 2009 : 12:21:52 PM
You shouldn't feel bad for doing what you feel best; it is highly risky to try, and could give you a whole heap of problems that only you know if you could cope with or not!
You are well within your rights; definitely stand your ground and do it with friends around you; try and talk to a solicitor about it first so that you have more authority in what you say; maybe also write it all down first so she can't sidetrack you.
Wherever the horse came from, it's apparent that she knew the true history and lied about it, and she knew that it was the wrong horse for you! Stay strong!
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| khira |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 7:59:09 PM
Thanks all you guys for your advice.
Spoke to her before. She wants to come down and see what he is doing - i've told her its not somat she is gonna be able just sort in a couple of sessions.
I've said i want my money back but she wants to swap him again - but let us loan the horse first b4 a vetting to see whether we 100% happy. It was her friend who works as a dealer also that we actually got the horse off(although it was done through her so as far as I'm concerned its her that is now liable) and hence it was the friend who fed us the pack of lies.
Once i have legal advice - and when she comes down to see the horse and pick him up ( I know you guys think I should work with him but I'm really not the right rider to do this) I will insist I get my money back. I think I'm better doing it face to face and also when i've the support of the ppl who came looking for a horse with me rather than just over the telephone.
I will defo let you guys know what happens and thanks again for your offers to help.
Nicola
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| kathleen |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 6:56:00 PM
I am so sorry to hear this up date its not fare on both you and horse
You where honest with your back ground, sadly someone else has not been with your boy.
Good luck and i hope you find the right horse for you |
| loosefur |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 2:58:29 PM
I'm not surprised by this - I had the feeling this horse had a history. I suppose passports do have their uses.
Nicola - this dealer blatantly lied to you. You now know the real history of the horse and you should definitely tell her everything you've found out and demand she takes the horse back and gives you a full refund. You're in even more of a strong position now that you've talked to an old owner. If she digs in her heels and tries to talk to round just end the conversation and tell her you're going to be referring the case to Trading Standards and will also be instructing a solicitor.
It's a shame for this horse but he needs to be with someone who is experienced with problem horses. That person isn't you. You could end up getting injured or worse. This is your hobby, as you said you've already spent a lot of money. Horses and riding should be fun, something you look forward to - not something that should reduce you to tears. Even if you don't get hurt your confidence with horses could be destroyed for life. Get your money back and then look for something that is much more suitable. There are lots of fabulous, quiet, safe, trustworthy horses out there that you will be able to have fun with. I do know a couple of dealers who are okay - one here in Preston and one Manchester way. The ideal horse for you is out there but sadly this one isn't it. If I can be of any help just let me know. |
| basbob |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:28:51 PM
Oh you poor pair. Do you know of anyone you can bring in to ride him and work with him rather than have the problems of finding another? An experienced instructor who can gently re educate him. He seems to be much better now than he was. Perhaps long reining him out may help you both. It's so awful for something like this to happen to you - and the poor horse. |
| geegee |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:25:54 PM
Oh Nicola, my heart goes out to you but if you had professional help you could so reap the benefits.
He isn't a bad horse, the poor boy has been owned by bad people.
Have you thought of looking into Natural Horsemanship? It is great for building confidence in horses and owners.
Definately second Mark Rashid's book....
Good luck
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| Mrs Vlacq |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:14:58 PM
aw - poor lad, he deserves someone to see him through now, surely!
Just a thought, did the vet carefully inspect his bits at the vetting? We had a pony for backing who had seen a lot of teh world and was easy to back, but he would sit in ditches out hacking (even with a ride of 15 to follow/lead) - it turned out he was a bit riggy |
| deebee |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 11:21:27 AM
Grr this is a story I've heard such a lot - I know there are some good dealers but I've not heard of any!
so sorry for you, and for the horse; it sounds like he's got real issues that just need someone to listen to him properly. It's so sad!
I do feel that if you could possibly work with him - and yourself - you together would have a truly great partnership and you would feel SO good about yourself! It's a matter of finding the right person, though, and being incredibly patient; not an easy task, I know. Mark Rashid's book 'Horses never lie' would be a good start, though.
You should have a good legal position, now that you've found the true history - unless she just says she told you all this, etc!
Good luck; I'll ask around a bit x |
| Nut |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 10:58:17 AM
Nicola, so sorry to hear that instead of a wonderful experience of buying a horse you have had two bad experiences. I would seek legal council on your rights, you should be protected as buyer who was sold a horse who does not meet the description given and/or your stated fact that you are a nervous novice rider.
I hope there is a happy outcome for both you and the horse x |
| khira |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 10:25:10 AM
I have an update on the situation.
I have managed to trace his previous rider/owner since her name and address had been hand written in his passport.
I feel so sorry for the lad - have his name now - (he was un-named at the dealer) he is called marty - she picked him up as a trainer / rider after some ppl bought him off a dealer as nervous riders but had the same problems as me but worse.
He was in a poorly state, feet a total mess, underweight. He had heart bared shoes on up until he left her because his feet were so bad (is that not remedial shoeing?) . He is a right grump in the stable so I assume from this he has been starved or something similar as he is VERY protective of his food. She also spent a lot of money on him having muscle therapy and massage because his muscles were all knotted up and just wrong throughout his entire body.
She also thought he had been beaten at some stage which also suggests why if i go to use to whip to back my legs up when running backwards he goes worse.
She said she didn't own him but had him for about 8 months - couldn;t buy him in the end due to her husband loosing his job and hence the old owners who had initially bought him off a dealer sent him to this girl in Cheshire.
She spent a lot of time long reining him on the roads and the very basics due tho this problem of running backwards. He has been sat on the bonnet of a car before - down ditches - all due to this habit. She said she has never known a horse like him because he could be yards from the stables on his way home and he would do his stopping trick - running backwards and refusing at all to go forwards even if they could see home. Whereas most horses that nap are doing it to return home. She is also the one who has done the schooling in the school.
She thinks its a confidence thing and with time it will improve (as it did with her as he was really really bad when she got him) but he is not suitable for a nervous rider as it will fuel the problem.
I feel so sorry for him. There is no way he can stay with me as I cannot deal with this with my stage of riding yet I dont want him passed from pillar to post.
And then there is the money side of it - I've already spent well over 5k - with vettings, transport, teeth rasping - buying the horse - not to mention all the heartache.
I wish i'd never set foot near this girl. I'd been told the horse had been in the same home since a 4 year old - one day evented and show jumped etc - its all a big pack of lies!!! all of it |
| basbob |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 06:54:37 AM
I don't think that getting off to diffuse the situation is a bad thing so long as you get back on again and all is well. If it's a confidence issue for you both it's probably a good way to deal with it. I've done that many times rather than have a battle I may not have won. Also I have found that sometimes if you sit there quietly with your legs gently on and wait him out he'll eventually go forward. |
| deebee |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 8:58:08 PM
Ah Khira, this makes it much more definite; the horse may well be picking up your distinct negative feeling about this situation, and feeding from it. Certainly try to see what the dealer does, she really ought to take him back - and then try to make doubly sure that your next horse is bomb proof; or get some good lessons and help for reprogramming how you feel about that bad situation! It's perfectly understandable to have such a feeling about a problem like that - but horses are soooo sensitive...
I'll ask around - it's bolton in lancashire, is it? |
| khira |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 8:09:55 PM
Hi Ella
The vet did check his teeth when he was vetted because the first horse I had had off the dealer needed his teeth rasping desperately.
He recommended I got them done as a routine thing but nothing urgent needed doing. And to be honest i ride more western style then english - especially out hacking and hardly had a contact other than the actual aid to stop. Its standing he has a problem with - he wasn;t actually spooking at anything but was throwing his head around and then backing up after about 20 seconds of us standing there like a childs paddy at being asked to wait. He then seemed to get all hot and bothered and its only after I got off (to prevent us falling backwards down a ditch) and standing him in hand for 5 mins whilst we both calmed down ( I was near tears and he stands fine in hand)
He was then as good as gold again but i didn't have the nerve to ask him to stand.
The dealer is coming down and regardless of how he acts with her on board I will ride him out with her walking and show her what I mean, she can then either tell me what I'm doing wrong and maybe then we can work through it but all I know at this stage is I am a nervous rider (after a bad fall last year) and in this kind of situation I cant hold my nerve long as I get flash backs of what happened at the bad fall - that was from a horse napping which resulted in the horse bronking and twisting and me faling off -
I'l keep you all posted with what happens and hopefully it'l all work out ok.
Nic
Nic |
| ella |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 5:46:42 PM
Hi Khira, please make sure his teeth have been checked & rasped properly. Not being willing to go forwards & not standing still when you 'held' him for the car to pass, but described by you as a 'good' horse normally could show pain when the bit comes into action?  |
| radfan |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 3:59:58 PM
Hi, feel for you, tricky situation as to what to do with him. If you can work through this together and come out the other side with lessons from a good instructor then you will feel as though you have conquered the world and the two of you will really bond. I think all is good advice on here, As simple as it sounds i also think that maybe you need to take a few steps back and just enjoy each other for a while & form that connection. This can take the form of even something as straightforward as walking out in hands, bathing, grooming. Just fun things that will help instill trust in each other. The more you become friends the more in tune you will be with eah other. Its still pretty early days to expect too much from him (although I am not justifying the napping at all! ....) just a suggestion. I spent Good luck and keep us posted. Cx |
| Mrs Vlacq |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 2:14:43 PM
I'd definitely practice rein back and transitions at home - loads of them and form your seat only. When you ask himto halt and he does, RELAX - be a ragdoll passenger. If he moves correct him and the instant he is still soften again. THen out hacking ask for halt form your seat and do this exercise when you want to. It osunds like he's not a foward thinker so build his confidence with poles, funnels etc - it'll boost yours too to make him more assertive. When you are getting somewhere, ask lots of people to ride him for 10mins so he unwinds to new situations.
And definitely teach him a rein back, so if you get into the pacing backwards situation again you shoudl give the rein back aids until you feel him engage, then ask for halt, soften and praise. It's just napping after all, so zigzagging etc will help. I also find that taking horses that do this behavior to have a good look at the gremlin just makes it worse, whereas doing an exercise they know (and they feel good at) past the gremlin soon has them foucsing better
And to add: sometimes it can be sorted overnight - I watches a horse I knew totally take the mickey with a local PRO Event Rider, instructor etc etc.... 3 days running. Then 1 of my girls got on, slobbed out all the way ona ride until he went to nap - in an instant she caught him at the critical moment, pushed the right buttons and released all the moment he was through it - horse NEVER napped again! |
