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T O P I C R E V I E W
george
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 6:27:30 PM Hi, Just needing a bit of info on a little Arab mare that we "saved" in a horse sales in brecon about three years ago, Trebinshwm Drucila or Treebie to her friends was hiding behind a welsh cob mare when we spotted her. We decided she was coming home with us, and she has a lovely little character, lol,6yrs and she had only ever had a halter on and had never had any hard feed, (I had to put little tasters in her mouth to get her to try it)needless to say she is now a very greedy lady and woe betide any of the others come near her food . when we brought her home we looked up her breeding and quickly realised that her parents are brother and sister! Is that a common practise in Arab horse breeding? we are really happy with her, she is 2nd from the left in my sig pics. thanks
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
george
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 12:53:29 PM I have just heard that the stallion has had 2 other foals born similar although the reliability of the person who told me is in doubt, but I know one of them was a wry nose and I tried to explain that this is not hereditary (please correct me if I am wrong) as far as I'm aware. I just hope that people will stop using this stallion as he is not licenced anyway
jackiedo
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 09:50:06 AM It is sad, but sadly even some totally unrelated human babies are born with deformities.
george
Posted - 07 Apr 2010 : 9:11:05 PM Thanks for everyone's comments, I agree that done carefully there is good reason for keeping important bloodlines, I myself would not, as it would be way over my head I'd have to do a hell of a lot of homework to understand it before even contemplating the idea. I believe the foal was dead for quite a while and, as Clutha said that's probably a blessing, the vet said there was no way it would have survived anyway. Poor little thing was so perfect every other way though, it's just so sad.
LYNDILOU
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 8:54:41 PM that is very sad , but it does not mean it was because of inbreeding necessarily , I was asked to go and help with a mare who had lost her foal in the night, it was exactly like that , but the mare and stallion were not related , not arabs one was a cob the other a Spanish lusitana ,so dont always think this is only related to close in breeding. I wont recommend in breeding but Judith Forbis wrote about this very subject in her books referring to a remote area cut off by mountains where horses inbred for generations . the results were strong healthy animals (obviously only the strongest survived ) weakness only showed up when the horses were brought out and then outcrossed with other's! much study has been done and in the right hands with careful selection of the best, line breeding and even inbreeding does not have to mean genetically poor specimins .
Clutha
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 8:03:21 PM As awful as the photo is, that the poor mite died on the way out may not have been a bad thing, would hope it wasn't aware of anything. At a yard I was at there were 5 foals (polo ponies) born by the same stallion from different high class mares. 1 couldn't suckle, failed to thrive & had to be pts within few weeks thinner than when it was born. 1 born looking 'unfinished' & as though his coat was on skew whiff. had open sores where skin hadn't knitted, partially blind & brain damaged. some people took him on. now 2 years old, runs in circles & into things, always looks poor, what kind of a life does he have? blind in a field, mentally not coping with life. the third colt was born with a hind leg on backwards. unfortunately he was alive so had to be loaded into a barrow & brought into box (had foaled in the day). desperately tried to stand & feed, vet came & pts. only the 2 fillies were okay. what are the odds on that?
sab2
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 1:34:16 PM Oh dear how heartbreaking , poor little mite and poor mare as well, i do agree this type of breeding should be left to the experts. Hope the mare is ok.
tamila
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 07:53:47 AM This happened to a friend of mine many years ago but there was no close breeding. The Australian vet was wonderful and said that he had only seen it once before. The mare went on to breed normally after that.
Pashon2001
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 7:11:24 PM I have heard of deformed foals through close breeding before, not always with obvious deformities, some are internal and cause the foal suffering or death. I have line bred and thankfully I have been successful, but I wouldnt go as close as full siblings. It is sad for that foal. And thanks for putting this on, although graphic and upsetting it can be a lesson on not breeding too closely related horses. Although in saying that it is common to breed half siblings together, or father/daughter etc. Which if the other half is not related seems to work if you know what you are doing.
debs
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 6:17:47 PM That poor poor little foal. It is so sad.
JESSIEMAE
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 5:23:53 PM Omg George! You are right, this picture has made me cry, but I also think you were correct in posting it.
I have seen line breeding go horrifically wrong in the line breeding of dogs, so like you, will leave to the experts!
Liza x
george
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 4:45:12 PM Please don't read any further if you are easily offended, as there is a horrible pic of a dead filly, very graphic, please be warned. The other night my OH's friend rang him in an awful panic, although he has horses he is not very experienced IMO,He said his young mare had foaled too early and they couldn't find the foal, he went straight there, and saw the mare was in terrible pain and told him to get a vet now! there was what looked like a piece of afterbirth but my OH was more concerned with making the mare comfortable, when the vet had arrived he took a look and said the foal was still inside the mare and he might not save neither of them but will try his best. The foal was breach and once he got the legs out it slipped out easily up to the neck, and then got stuck again, he was frantically trying to get it out before it suffocated, when he did get the foal out they all just stood there in astonishment, the poor little filly had an abnormal head, the bones in the top of the scull had not formed forcing brain matter into the opening which caused a huge lump on the head. The vet said "in the ten years I have been a vet I have never seen this in a horse, only in sheep" he then took a pic for his records. My OH had heard that this mare was in foal to her half brother!!!! and asked the vet could that be the reason, Yes definitely was the reply. The mares owner was devastated as he'd bought the mare in foal, but he was really grateful to all involved as the mare although stressed, was fine, so here is the pic, I am a little apprehensive of putting it on here as I don't want anyone offended but as the vet said it is something he'll probably never see again and could have gone a life time without seeing in a horse, so we kept it for experience sake, but it "is" awful especially as she was perfect in every other way, it made me cry. needless to say I think it really should be left to the experts to line breed , and I for one will certainly never try.
LYNDILOU
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 3:15:41 PM Some years ago I put Charismma on his daughter to fix type, it worked beautifully except for one thing , the resulting filly was quiet small, although she has a useful life, she is currently owned by an endurence rider who loves her to bits and is an angel in every repect, I also tried him on a grand daghter but I wouldnt do it again, instead I line breed to Carmargue making sure they are far back enough when using my Charismma daughters and charismma on relatives your mare should be of the highest quality, sound , correct conformation, and free of genetic diseases.
barbara.gregory
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 1:57:00 PM Sounds like the local phrase "Normal for Norfolk"!!!!
"Barbara, problem is, you don't necessarily eliminate the faults, sometimes you double them up! I can think of two examples of very close relations, bred by very knowledgeable breeders that definitely did not achieve what was hoped for. Its all still a gamble." Couldn't agree more, they can throw some nasty surprises but if you are very knowledgeable about what lurks in the genes of paricular horses you are more likely not to have a horrible disaster than someone with very limited knowledge who thinks they are both "lovely horses"! However, it is rare for brother and sister to be of such exceptional conformation, temperament etc that one would want to risk breeding them.
I have two mares who are full sisters and on two occasions have used the same stallion on them, Assad and Ansata Qasim, both fantastic stallions impeccably bred. While I am very pleased with the foals they produced I would not consider them to be of such exceptional merit that I would want to breed them to each other even though they are not quite full siblings.
Barbara
debs
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 1:18:33 PM He he!
Pashon2001
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 12:15:14 PM Didnt know you lived in my village debs lol
debs
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 06:37:24 AM You only have to look at our local villagers to know its wrong....
jasjmm
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 6:27:08 PM Barbara, problem is, you don't necessarily eliminate the faults, sometimes you double them up! I can think of two examples of very close relations, bred by very knowledgeable breeders that definitely did not achieve what was hoped for. Its all still a gamble.
Pashon2001
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 8:10:48 PM Its on arabdatasource, and I'm afraid you have to pay to use it, you will know the breeders name/address anyways cause its on her papers but Mr Edwards also bred the sire and dam. Here is a list of some he has bred, datasource is american and don't have many british records past 2003 unfortunately. Name Number Foaled Gender Color SHIMHAM-KHAN AHSB*12662 1980 Stallion Chestnut ZYRYHIS AHSB*12836 1980 Mare Chestnut GHARSHIM AHSB*13604 1981 Mare Grey HIZRYA AHSB*14787 1982 Stallion Chestnut JOSHIMMER AHSB*15485 1983 Mare Bay SHAHBEC AHSB*20507 1986 Stallion Grey PETRYA-KHAN AHSB*20508 1987 Stallion Chestnut RAHQYZ AHSB*20509 1989 Stallion Grey ZIRA AHSB*20510 1987 Mare Grey MADEAN SHIMMER AHSB*20511 1988 Stallion Chestnut ZYRAHQ AHSB*20512 1989 Stallion Grey ALPHA IBN ESTANSA AHSB*24107 1992 Stallion Bay ZYRYN AHSB*24221 1992 Mare Bay ADORHER AHSB*25029 1993 Mare Chestnut MEADOW MIZ AHSB*26931 1994 Mare Bay TREBINSHWM RED ALERT AHSB*27923 1995 Stallion Chestnut TREBINSHWM HADAD AHSB*29682 1997 Stallion Grey TREBINSHWM ZIBIAH AHSB*29772 1997 Mare Bay BINT SALILAH AHSB*32594 1998 Mare Bay TREBINSHWM SHADOW AHSB*33412 2003 Mare Grey You should be able to look these up on allbreed but if you have any problems let me know and I will get you the pedigrees of any you can't find.
george
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 5:47:39 PM Hi barbara.g We are in Swansea, thanks for your coments, there certainly is a lot to consider. As I have bred for a number of years, just not Arabs! I would never do so lightly, as you have said I will look at her objectively and I must say that I have been looking to the SE but I will stay open minded on that, I do like the Polish/Russian , again with an open mind, to me I have to be honest it's the head I look at first but will try not to let that cloud the rest,lol.
Pashon2001 where can I veiw the breeders records? am I able to? I have only looked up her breeding on allbreed, are there any other sites that might help me? sorry to be a pain I could get a little obsessed by this
Pashon2001
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 2:40:38 PM Having had a look at the breeders records it seems that this is probably not an accidental mating, as he has bred very closely with this pedigree before (unless he has a lot of escapees of course lol).
barbara.gregory
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 10:16:35 AM Despite what some say on here mating full siblings is not common practice. It is usually only done by very knowledgeable and experienced breeders who are looking to fix certain characteristics and know their pedigrees and what they produce extremely well. I would guess your mare is the result of an accident or someone not wanting to pay a stud fee! It can be a very risky business and best left to the real experts! Bear in mind that "inbreeding" is an abbreviation for incest breeding!
That said, there are some nice bloodlines there. I personally would go for a good straight Egyptian stallion or golden cross. You need to critically appraise your mare to see where her faults are; if you can see both parents, appraise them as well. I have two mares who are full sisters and are not at all alike and, put to the same ,have produced very differently. Estopa was a wonderful straight Spanish mare who, when bred to Shaker el Masri, a straight Egyptian stallion, produced the legendary El Shaklan as well as other fantastic horses such as Ibn Estopa. These horses were very line and in bred in future generations (including a full brother/sister mating but this was done by the Om el Arab stud who knew exactly what they were doing).
Where are you, I am guessing in or near Brecon? If you don't feel able to judge your mare is there a breeder near you who would? When you are looking for a stallion, don't just look at him but see what he produces and what his sire and dam were like. Big stallions don't always produce big foals! Beautiful stallions with lots of show wins who are heavily promoted don't always produce good foals.
Good luck with your mare, I am sure she is lovely and there will be a lot of horses with Estopa in their pedigree to choose from if you decide to go that way, especially the Maleik el Kheil line; lovely boy and a great producer, if he had been straight Egyptian as I would have used him on my mares.
Barbara
Pashon2001
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 4:00:16 PM I totally agree that it must happen a lot in wild herds, with the stallion mating daughters and then granddaughters if he remains unchallenged. As long as it is done wisely and not doubling up on extreme faults then choose well and enjoy!!
Clutha
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 3:15:11 PM Why not review her critically, no matter how much you love them no horse is perfect. Make a list of her weak points you would like to improve, & strong points you would like to reinforce. Then take your time reviewing loads of boys (which is immensley good fun), get a short list of potential husbands & go see them in the flesh (even more fun), before making a choice rather than going for a boy just because he has one particular horse in his pedigree. Take your time & enjoy it.
george
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 2:04:05 PM Thanks, I would be looking for something with height as she is only 14.1hh, also I know people dont agree, but left in natural herds it would occur, with father daughter mating too until some bachelor colt challen.ges the stallion. I also know that we dont keep them that way but maybe it is not as bad for her as I first thought. My OH wants to put her with something completely different, but we are agreed on height being important. Gosh, this is so exiting, I'm loving everything Arabian!
Pashon2001
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 12:49:50 PM Some people call it inbreeding, some line breeding! If you are talking about the original estopa in her pedigree then he only appears twice so breeding back would not be particularly close as he is several generations away. What I would consider is her size (or lack of) and choose a boy of a decent height so you don't get a foal that grows to be smaller than her (unless thats what you want of course). I'm probably going to be shot down in flames but I would do it if thats how I felt the breeding would be best. I have bred and retained a colt who hopefully will be my next stud horse who is out of half brother/sister (same father). If you think about it he still is technically only 50% blood of his grandsire! If you do choose a stallion with estopa in him then I would be inclined to see that the majority of his pedigree was not related as she is already a full brother sister mating.
. when we brought her home we looked up her breeding and quickly realised that her parents are brother and sister! Is that a common practise in Arab horse breeding? we are really happy with her, she is 2nd from the left in my sig pics.
thanks
although the reliability of the person who told me is in doubt, but I know one of them was a wry nose and I tried to explain that this is not hereditary (please correct me if I am wrong) as far as I'm aware. I just hope that people will stop using this stallion as he is not licenced anyway 
I could get a little obsessed by this
