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T O P I C R E V I E W
Kelly
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 10:30:21 AM I'm sorry, this is long, but I'm really worried.
I’m having doubts about whether my farrier is the best one for Jack. I know nothing about hooves, and up until recently, didn’t question what he did. However, last summer I asked the opinion of two friends. They use a different farrier, with a different method, but they use the same one as each other. Theirs trims very short, squares off the toe and does 4 point shoeing.
They think that mine leaves Jacks feet very long, and his heels very low, and that he has awful feet. Apparently, their farrier, and another one have also criticised the state of Jacks feet. No-one had told me this, until I asked!! Our chiropractor told me to ask my farrier to build his heels up as it is putting pressure on the back of his legs, being so low.
I don’t feel that I know enough to tell a farrier, the expert, how to do his job. So I asked him to explain to me etc, and also got him to trim shorter, and take shoes a bit further back under his heel. And thought I’d see how it goes.
However, this time, due to snow etc, Jack has gone nearly 10 weeks, and the foot he damaged a few years ago (at the coronet band) was very out of balance (one side grows faster than the other, which hadn’t been apparent when he was being shod more frequently). I made a big deal of it to the farrier yesterday, and left him to it. I was in a rush yesterday, and didn’t check it, but it’s obvious this morning in daylight that it’s still unbalanced. The outside is hitting the ground sooner than the inside.
My quandry is, do I get my current farrier back to fix it, or cut my losses and get the same one as my friends? I like my current one, he’s on time, good at communication if any problems, and good with Jack. I'd feel awful changing. But I have those doubts about whether he’s doing the best job for Jack – or is he just doing the best he can with rubbish feet? I don’t know enough to know.
Here are some pics that might help. They’re from last summer, but nothing much has changed. The first is the off hind, and the other three are off fore, NOT the damaged one. If anyone can make suggestions I’d really appreciate it – this is obviously a crucial subject and I’m upset at the thought that maybe I’ve not been doing the best for Jack, and worried about what to do.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Karon
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 1:47:25 PM Montikka, Ali does sound IR. Shef is much the same, although the fatty lumps are nothing like as bad now I've got used to managing her. All mine are on Mag Ox as a matter of routine, and I've found it does help.
Montikka
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 7:12:34 PM Well Loosfur I have spent many hours on that website - thank you for pointing it out to me. I am becoming more convinced that Ali's problem isn't predominately her feet - I think the 'footiness' is a symptom. Looking at her fat deposits - she even has fullness above her eyes is making me suspect that you are right to question the possibility of IR. She appears not overweight and yet has these fat, lumpy areas, my other mare is slightly overweight too but it is very different - all tummy, no crest and she is shiney, lively and energetic. Obviously, both of them are now being restricted in their paddock as the grass is coming through - but I suspect the last batch of hay has been FAR too rich (sugary) for them. It is moist, sweet and full of clover. Incidentally, another horse on the livery yard has suddenly foundered and is on the same hay. I hadn't considered Cushings or any other metabolic condition as she is only six, but clearly younger horses are still at risk, particularly on high sugar diets with not a lot of exercise. The farrier (who came last week) thought I was worrying too much! So, the regime for now is restricted grass, soaked hay and a handful of hi-fi lite. I shall get some Magnesium and try to up the exercise.
loosefur
Posted - 27 Mar 2010 : 11:16:00 PM Hi Louise
From your description your mare certainly sounds like she could be an IR candidate or possibly Cushings - the cresty neck in particular is a common sign. That website/discussion group is a mine of information. It's not unusual that your vet hasn't even considered IR - it's not on the radar of many vets... frustrating but equally they have to retain so much information they can't possibly be experts in everything.
The best time to measure for boots is after a trim, especially for the Gloves as they are designed to fit very snugly so you want to fit them for the smallest your horse's feet are, not when they are at their biggest - even though it's only millimetres different. Re the length - it can be tricky to get this right, it sounds like you might have measured a bit long - try taking the measurement again but using the method on the website. The best way of fitting Gloves is to either get a trimmer who fits boots in to do it for you or hire one of the Fix Kits from The Saddlery Shop. That way you get one of each size of Glove (without the gaiters attached) and you can play around with finding the best fit.
Any more questions just ask.
PS Yes you are right about the hoof growth - average one cm growth per month. Other events that can cause stress rings are chemical wormers, vaccinations, other drugs like anti-biotics.
And PPS - it's fine if the hoof pairs are different sizes... most are slightly different but even bigger differences aren't something I'd worry too much about as long as the feet themselves were healthy. One of my geldings has one front foot half a size in Gloves bigger than the other - it doesn't seem to bother him though!
Montikka
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 5:09:48 PM Square Pants!
Kelly
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 1:37:30 PM I don't mind at all Louise, I'm soaking all this info up - just call me Sponge-Kelly Square-Pants!
Montikka
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 12:19:45 PM I hope you don't mind my jumping into your thread Kelly
Montikka
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 12:18:33 PM Thank you so much for your detailed reply Loosefur.
Lots to be going on there, she is fed hay, but it is very variable as we are supplied by the yard owner - at the moment it is very rich, so soaking is a good tip and I shall do that. She is in at night, but once it's warmer I could swap her to in during the day. I shall certainly be ordering some Magnesium for her - she's having seaweed too, not sure if it helps.
Looking at her feet, I'd say they are slightly narrow and upright but not excessively so - they have improved since she's been barefoot. She does have stress rings, quite a major one about an inch down (is that about 2 months ago?) I don't remember any changes at that time, but it could have been simply a different batch of hay. I didn't take as long to study her feet as I'd like this morning, but I did measure them: they are 4 3/4 inches wide and 5 1/4 inches long - she is due a trim though, so perhaps I should remeasure then. Does it matter that one hind hoof was just a tiny bit shorter than the other?
Other factors that I think may be relevant (and I shall visit the website you recommend re" Insulin Resistance) are: I feel her crest is quite pronounced even though she isn't very overweight. She has put fat up behind her withers too, which is a little bit like cellulite. Her coat is dull and she is VERY itchy. I have put this down to moulting as it is coming out in handfuls, and added oil (vegetable) to her diet.
A vet saw her about a month ago - and said not to worry about her coat as it would improve once she's moulted.
I shall look on ebay at the Easyboot Glove, as I feel this would be beneficial to her.
Edited to say: Loosefur, I've just looked on the Easyboot website and can see that the sizing needs to be very accurate, Ali's in mm's are: width 121, length, 133. Does this suggest to you that her feet are too long, particularly as she is due a trim? Also I think I may have been slightly over on the length as I took it from the buttress of the heel, but not in the centre (I took it from the slightly longer one on the outside, rather than drawing a line and taking it from the centre to the toe).
Once again thank you for taking the time to help
loosefur
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 6:22:53 PM Hi Louise
It sounds like your mare is very sugar sensitive. She may even be Insulin Resistant. To find out more about that I highly recommend joining the Yahoo discussion group TheMetabolicHorse. There are blood tests that can be done to determine if this is the case.
There is plenty you can do diet wise to help her. To check whether Hoofkind contains molasses you will need to check the small print on the ingredients label - the website doesn't say one way or the other. What sort of grazing is she on? A small proportion of horses can't cope with even tiny amounts of grass and have to be permanently dry lotted and fed only on low sugar/soaked hay. But for most simply restricting grazing, either by putting on a starvation paddock, using grazing muzzles or stabling/yarding during the day is sufficient. Is she fed hay or haylage? Soaking hay for 12 hours before feeding will leech out most of the sugar. There is some disagreement over whether haylage is okay to be fed at all - but it all depends on the sugar content and you can only find that out by having your haylage analysed (Dengie offer a service where you send them a sample to analyse). I would also highly recommend adding a magnesium supplement to her feed. The Hoofkind already contains magnesium according to the website but not in a high enough amount to make a difference. Either magnesium oxide (which you can buy off ebay) or Magrestor (which is a purer version of magnesium and therefore better absorbed by the body).
You can tell an awful lot by looking at the hooves themselves. Do they have lots of growth/stress rings round the hoof wall, which indicates a problem with sugar sensitivity? What's her white line like when you look at the underside of the foot?
As for boots - they are probably going to be essential for your mare but the best ones for her will depend on the size and shape of her feet. If she fits into the sizes of Easyboot Gloves I'd recommend them first - if you measure her feet and post the sizes on here I'll be able to tell you if they'll fit. It's always a good idea to fit them to the horse and let them have a walk and trot in them before riding in them. I've not yet seen a horse react violently to them but you never know - it really depends on the horse. A short lunging session with the boots on is a good idea.
Hope that helps some
Montikka
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 5:19:29 PM This thread is very interesting to me as I also like to keep my horses unshod. However, Ali, our six year old has always seemed 'footy', she just never seems happy on a hack and it appears to get worse as the ride goes on. She's never hacked for more than an hour and a half. She did have shoes on for a while, but this made no difference. The soles of her feet seem quite sensitive, as she sometimes flinches when I'm picking them out (carefully). I've checked teeth/back etc just incase it isn't her feet. Loosefur - I am very interested in your comments regarding diet - is there something I could be doing to help her? She's mainly on Horsehage 'Hoofkind' which I think contains no molasses, I better check.
I'm wondering if boots would help her, if so, which would people recommend? Also she is still green, so do I need to get her used to them before just launching on a ride, just in case she has a fit at the feel of them!
Any advice greatfully received.
pinkvboots
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 10:21:13 AM My gelding has had a foot imbalance, I noticed a flare on the inside wall about the same time he looked slightly unlevel, my vet x rayed both front feet so my farrier could see what he needed to do.
He has wide web shoes fitted now they are fitted quite far back to support the heal, and hang over the edge to encourage the foot to grow outwards as this foot is quite upright. the flare has almost grown out, it has taken about four months and I caught this really early. he looked level after about 2 shoeings but still looked unlevel on a circle for a while but he is sound now.
I notice on one of your pictures the wall on one side is quite a bit longer, I would definitely consider having them x rayed so the farrier can work from this.
I have considered barefoot but the tracks are very stony near us too and he really feels the sharp stones even with shoes on so I don't think this will work for me. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
loosefur
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 10:20:59 PMFortunately with hoof boots you can carry on working at the same level you were at when shod with no interruption. I took my gelding's shoes off mid-endurance season last year (June), didn't alter his work load one bit and was doing a 40 mile ride in mid-July. Got a Grade 2 to boot (pun intended!).
Kelly - if you have any questions about barefoot and/or hoof boots just ask
Tricia
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 6:33:32 PM Hi Kelly,
Those photos you show are something that a good farrier could sort out quite easily. It would certainly be an easier route to go down than having to spend some months or longer transitioning to barefoot.
Tricia
Kelly
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 4:37:39 PM Thank you all for your thoughts. I'm seriously considering barefoot, so will start reading these books. Haven't had chance yet due to cooking for 6 for Mothers Day yesterday, and taking little sis shopping on saturday!
Re diet - I will change to the Badminton Alfa-lite chop when the hi-fi lite is done (thank you Loosefur ) Theo, he is on seaweed, micronised linseed and brewers yeast already (I've think I've read this combination referred to as Magic feet powder?!)
As for Paddock Paradise, I like the idea, but I share a field with 2 other horses - one fatty would definitely benefit, but the other needs all the grass he can get. Plus, I like Jack to have enough room to get out of the way when the other two pick on him, so the enclosed quarters wouldn't be great . I may discuss options with the two ladies for this summer though.
Karon
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 1:40:31 PM That last photo could be my Ash when she had shoes on - except Ash had even more difference in height of inside and outside of foot. Going barefoot - another one in a stony area too - really made a different to her and, apart from about 6 weeks at the start, I never need to use hoof boots with her. This was a horse who struggled to go over any stony ground at all with shoes on!
Doing a track system makes a big difference with my horses, it keeps them moving (and slimmer) and, as I have some hard standing at the top of my field, they also have something dry to stand on.
loosefur
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 10:56:54 AM What Dengie only put in the very small print on their bags of Healthy Hooves is that it does contain molasses - as does Happy Hoof and Safe and Sound. Not sure why they need to add molasses but they all do. Low levels yes but if you want to feed non-molassed fibre feeds then you need to look elsewhere.
Theo
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 10:06:39 PM Oh, oh, oh, oh... Jo's just pointed out that Dengie does offer a product called 'Healthy Hooves'
Blog below...
Combining fibre sources that are all low in starch and sugars such as alfalfa, as well as a special low sugar coating Healthy Hooves is ideal to help maximise gut health and with a range of vitamins and minerals to complement those naturally occurring in alfalfa, Healthy Hooves will provide a balanced diet for your horse.
PROVEN NUTRIENT FOR HEALTHY HOOVES Several studies have been conducted into how much biotin a horse requires. A study published in the Equine Vet Journal (1992), found that greater growth rates and hardness of hooves was achieved at a daily feeding rate of 15mg of biotin than at 7.5mg in horses diets. The level of biotin included in Dengie Healthy Hooves has been formulated accordingly and thus when fed at the recommended rates will provide your horse with 15mg of biotin per day.
Research published in the Vet Record (1987) demonstrated that alfalfa increases the quality and quantity of horn growth which was attributed to the highly available calcium and essential amino acids found naturally in alfalfa.
B-vitamins have a wide range of functions within the horses digestive system including energy metabolism and growth and development. Healthy Hooves was the first chopped fibre feed on the market with a full range of all these important nutrients.
KEY BENEFITS OF HEALTHY HOOVES Dengie Healthy Hooves has a full range of B vitamins including biotin at levels that research has shown to be effective at maximising hoof health and was the first chopped fibre feed product on the UK market to include all these important nutrients. Low energy. Horses and ponies that are overweight are at greater risk of laminitis. Healthy Hooves is very low in energy or calories at just 8.5MJ/Kg DE. Low Sugar and Starch. Research has shown that horses and ponies predisposed to laminitis are at greater risk if fed cereals. Healthy Hooves is free from cereal grains. Chelated Trace Minerals. These are important for improved bio-availability to the horse, i.e. they are more easily absorbed by the horses digestive system. Trace minerals are important for general condition including hooves and coat condition and are also integral components for the body’s anti-oxidant system. Essential High Fibre. Fibre provides slow release energy and is essential for maximising gut health. Highly palatable. Healthy Hooves contains added garlic for great palatability and pellets for added interest.
Clever girlie she is!
T x
loosefur
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 2:56:38 PM
Originally posted by Kelly
As for the sugar in his diet, the Hi-fi is 'lite', but if anyone can recommend a chop with NO sugar, I'd get that (I haven't been able to find one). But I couldn't and wouldn't take him off grass entirely - he and his two friends live out all summer, and he'd go stir crazy without that!
Badminton Horse Feeds do a whole range of non-molassed chops and forage based feeds - very competitively priced too. Have a look on the Badminton Horse Feeds website for local stockists. My lot love the Easy Rider and the Alfala Light. Top Spec Top Chop Lite is also molasses free and a better option that Hi-Fi if you can't get the Badminton Horse Feeds range.
Re the grass issue - what a lot of people are doing is restricting the area of field their horses can graze by creating paddock paradises i.e they run an approx 3 metre wide track round the perimeter of the field using electric fencing - the track has two benefits... restricting grazing and encourages movement as it more closely mimics how horses behave in the wild. Google Paddock Paradise to find out more
Theo
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 10:04:17 AM Hi Kelly, Most brands of 'chop' are bound together with a certain amount of molasses so it wont go dusty, the other alternative is to use one bound by oil... I use Alfa-A Oil for mine.
I would also highly recommend feeding Seaweed and Rosehip blend of herbs for hoof strengthening.
T x
Kelly
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 11:02:39 PM Hi agian guys
Thanks for your comments. I have to admit, I am interested in barefoot, so it might be worth finding out more. A couple of the books my friend has lent me are about barefoot, so I'll have a read.
As for the sugar in his diet, the Hi-fi is 'lite', but if anyone can recommend a chop with NO sugar, I'd get that (I haven't been able to find one). But I couldn't and wouldn't take him off grass entirely - he and his two friends live out all summer, and he'd go stir crazy without that!
loosefur
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 9:32:10 PM I've been so impressed by the changes in my horses since I took them barefoot (I could go on and on about the benefits ) that I went out to the States at the end of last year to train as a barefoot trimmer with Jaime Jackson, so that I could help other people and horses get to where my lot are now. And I was someone who was VERY sceptical about the whole barefoot thing twelve months ago.
sasha
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 9:09:49 PM
As loosefur has said, great boots available now.. renegades and the Easyboot Glove! You also have some very good trimmers in Yorkshire who will fit boots to your horse and give you lots of support!!! I also agree about sugar and grass...!!!!
loosefur
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 6:33:11 PM It's very stony round me too and all mine are barefoot - one took a few months to transition, one a few weeks and one was sound on stones straight away. Whilst transitioning you just need some hoof boots so you can carry on working him - there's a wide range of hoof boots available now that are very easy to fit.
Generally if they remain 'ouchy' after a few months transitioning time it's because of their diet - cut out the sugar and you'll have a sound horse over the stoniest terrain. For those horses extra sensitive to sugar that can mean taking them off grass altogether and just feeding dried forage. Adding a magnesium supplement can also make the difference between having a horse footy on stones and having one totally sound as can changing all your hard feeds to ones without molasses
Kelly
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 4:10:52 PM I wish I could go barefoot, but it's very stony round here. I tried it when Jack was first backed, but he winced with every step, and could only do a mile or so on roads before he felt footy.
I know it's a long process to get them there, but I don't feel I could do that to him.
sasha
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 3:37:21 PM Is there any way you can go down the barefoot route. I havn't had a horse shod in 7 years now, and I can tell you that if you are patient and get a good trimmer, your horses heels will come back to where they should be naturally by lots of walking on tarmac. The heels will widen, the hoof will become more ' cone' shaped.. as it should be and the whole hoof will be a better shape and much stronger, as the walls will become thicker, the frog will be doing its job as a shock absorber too!!
Kelly
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 1:54:26 PM Hi all
'Independent farrier' thinks that while it's not completely awful, the hinds being better than the fronts, it could be better.
'Anterior/posterior imbalance on all four, and severe medial/lateral imbalance on the damaged foot (near fore). However, off fore nicely balanced m/l. Toes a little too long and heels under run. Good strong feet. Easily rectifiable, wouldn't harm him to ride with foot like that, but wants sorting asap.'
He also thinks that the unlevel pastern/coronet band area could be sorted over time - I always assumed this was an unavoidable consequence of his injury.
I have books to read and a decision to make. Soon.
Here are more pics, taken yesterday, so 2 days after shoeing.
Square Pants!
Fortunately with hoof boots you can carry on working at the same level you were at when shod with no interruption. I took my gelding's shoes off mid-endurance season last year (June), didn't alter his work load one bit and was doing a 40 mile ride in mid-July. Got a Grade 2 to boot (pun intended!).
. I may discuss options with the two ladies for this summer though.
