| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
|
Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
|
|
Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 11:23:17 AM
|
Hi Sue,
I will have a look in my own data base for off spring of Sahara. There are quite a few, and I know from memory that the Tan-y-Bwlch ponies who were by him are in a lot of Part-bred ponies of today. The AHS count Sahara as having 50% arab blood. |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Pelle
Bronze Member
Sweden
141 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 12:11:07 PM
|
Sahara, Barb, white, height 14.3 hh, foaled about 1908.
Mrs F.E.G Betty bought Sahara when she was in Gibraltar in 1913. He came from a load of ponies from Marocco and was called Sahara since he was branded (Sahara Desert Brand) with a necklace of spots in a double row.
When war broke out in 1914, Mrs Betty shipped him to the United Kingdom and she hunted him in the Carmarthen and Brecon areas for two years, eventually selling him to Mr Denis Aldridge at the 1919 Royal Welsh Show. It was while in the ownership of Mr. Aldridge that Mrs Inge sent many mares to Sahara including Brynhir Black Star, dam of Tanybwlch Berwyn.
When Mr. Aldridge gave up breeding, he leased Sahara to Mrs. Bolam in the New Forest and that was where he died.
(This is about him in Dr Wynne Davies book :Welsh Ponies and Cobs) |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 12:40:50 PM
|
| Fleurette 1921 by Sahara ex Balis AHS Vol 1 (Seyal x Bukra) |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
|
|
Pelle
Bronze Member
Sweden
141 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 4:48:19 PM
|
Mother has found something about Sahara in a book called british native ponies and their crosses by Phyllis Hinton.
: In the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Journal Mrs Betty tells us that evetually the local farmers induced her to use him for stud work and that he travelled the Camarthenshire and Brecon districts for two seasons. She showed him as a polo pony stallion at the Royal, when it was held at Cardiff in 1919 and he did very well.
This is where Mr Denis Aldridge , for many years Secretary of The Quorn Hunt, spotted him and and bought him, together with mares infoal to him. Both he and Mrs Betty speak of with real affection of Sahara's kindness and quietness, Mr Aldridge declaring him to be the perfect hack.
The late Mrs Inge and the late Lord Lonsdale were among those who realized his value as a sire and sent a number of mares to him each year. All those sent by Mrs Inge were grey Welsh ponies and among them was the mare who became the dam of Tan-y-Bwlch Berwyn-
.
Mr Aldridge says : No mating has ever done more for the pony breeds than this. Sahara was the surest of stock getters and I never remember his getting anything but grey.Incidentally he also sired some very vbaluable polo ponies. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 5:07:36 PM
|
Thanks for the info folks...and
Glad it was one that you were familiar with Pelle,was this one of the one's you'd mentioned...and could not remember his name????, he looks a nice boy. I see that there are also Polo Ponies in the back breeding of the Welsh ponies tooo.(Lynda you might clarify this for me..later).
Leaving the link ref: Welsh Ponies, which has a few references to SAHARA and his use on the Welsh ponies to improve the breed, along with one or two other Arab's .an interesting article for many of us..and with SAHARA getting a personnal mention.
In 1918 the Horse breeding Act was passed. This meant that every breeding stallion had to be licensed annually after a veterinary inspection. By the late 1920's a tremendous demand for quality children's ponies encourage the Welsh Pony Society to allow two stallions of eastern blood (at least 1/2 Arabian) into the Stud Book. These were Tan-y-Bwlch Berwyn (by the Barb stallion Sahara) and Craven Cyrus (by King Cyrus a full Arab son of the polish Arab Skowronek). Many of the resultant larger mares were crossed either with Hackneys for harness ponies, or thoroughbreds and arabs to produce the famous partbred ponies which are so popular today. However it must also be noted that these stallions figure largely in the ancestry of several influential Sec. A and Sec. B sires and dams.
TANYBWLCH BERWYN (foaled in 1924) by SAHARA (an Arabian Barb) out of BRYNHIR BLACK STAR by BLEDDFA SHOOTING STAR. BERWYN is represented via his sons and daughters COED COCH BERWYNFA,
foundation sires: *DOWNLAND DRUMMER BOY, a bay who doubles back to the 12h chestnut DOWNLAND SERCHOG (of Criban ancestory), and *CUSOP SHERIFF whose generational bloodlines are close in to SAHARA(Arab Barb stallion) and several trotting cob lines.
from the link below...
http://aurigafarm.com/Origins.html
Cheers Sue. |
Sue
|
Edited by - Rozy Rider on 02 Jan 2010 5:22:54 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 11:34:04 PM
|
Well Rozy Rider I started looking at our Sec B's and found all 4 go back to Sahara eventually, however the closest is Skellorn Paper Roses with Sahara 4th gen, and Rotherwood Penny Picture with 6th gen.
Skellorn Paper Roses as a yearling she is 4 yrs now
Rotherwood Penny Picture who is 3 yrs & pics taken 2009 showing season, she certainly shows her arab ancestry when showing off!
 
I also found a reference to Sahara in Wynne Davies book The Welsh Mountain Pony. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 11:21:54 AM
|
Thank You Hazel for coming back and leaving us some lovely photos of your horses, I wonder like me, if you were shocked to find this Sahara Desert bred Barb/Arab stallion in there. I had always heard that the welsh breed had Arab blood, but this is the first time I have found the actual Arab stallion.
I'm also leaving you the link to the Rotherwood Honeysuckle line, as she also goes back to an Arabian, the Lady Wentworth imported Skovronek 1909,used in those early days too and leaving one or two other Arabians in the line, KING CYRUS 1923 (Grey) & CRAVEN CYRUS 1927, Part Bred Arab.Who I am looking for at the moment.
I also spotted there was reference to these Arabs/Barbs in Dr Wynnes book and I have also left the link higher up, which gives reference to them and confirms the findings. Pelle, Has also left a bit about the Dr's book too. Her mother & gran Mother lived in the area where SAHARA went to spend his later life. And we are finding reference to these Arab imports been used in the New Forest too.
Thanks again for your family pictures, do you think you can spot there is a little Arab blood in there too.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lady+cyrus
http://aurigafarm.com/Origins.html
Just adding that BLEDDFA was the prefix of the Radnorshire Riding & Polo Pony Society, they held 400 or 500 horses, they also hired horses out and many of the usefull polo ponies came from there and which bred with our native ponies gave us the lovely riding ponies of today.They sold up in 1906??.(Pelle's Gran-Mother bought horses at the sale.)
Cheers & Thanks
Sue
(note for Mylinda. NPS vol.XIX p.20,SAHARA, foaled 1909.(not 1908).
cheers Sue. |
Sue
|
Edited by - Rozy Rider on 12 Jan 2010 11:42:36 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pelle
Bronze Member
Sweden
141 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 5:24:31 PM
|
PBA vol I 1921, Sahara is born in 1909.
2nd prize (Eastern stallions) London Show 1920
1st Prize (Eastern stallions) London Show 1921
3rd Prize (Polo Pony Stallions) R.A.S.E 1919
Reserve (Polo Pony Stallions) R.A.S.E 1920 |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 8:23:15 PM
|
I have to give credit to Chris James, firstly for finding my first broodmare September Shade (Pure Arab) and for telling me that Arabs were used in Welsh breeds and of course many other "pure bred" natives and warmbloods.
Just going to quote from "One Hundred Glorious Years" "The Welsh Pony & Cob Society 1901-2001" by Dr Wynne Davies in case there is anyone else following this thread so hasn't read it.
"Stud Prefix: Tanybwlch Sections: A,B
Address: Plas Tanybwlch, Maentwrog, Merionethshire.
................. Brynhir Black Star (f.1917, Bleddfa Shooting Star x Brynhir Flight) and Brynhir White Star (f.1918, full-sister) were bought for £20 each in 1923 from Walter Glynn, the Grange, Bletchley, Bucks also Kilhendre Celtic Rumour (f.1915, Grove Ballistite x Grove Gossip) was bought for £25 and Grey Princess (f.1918 Wentworth Windfall x Lady Greylight) for £18 from Lady Wentworth. The six mares in 1932 were sent at Stud to the Barb stallion Sahara (born in Morocco), the stud fees and keep amounting to £54 and the railway charge was £9. Brynhir Black Star in 1924 produced Tanybwlch Berwyn (photo p.77), the "Abraham" of the Welsh pony section B; White Star had a filly Sierol, Rumour had a colt Rhiadr Ddu and the other three had fillies. ............"
Tanybwlch Berwyn looks a cracking stamp of a pony from the published photos. Also I found the costs very interesting and the rail journey. Makes me realise how easy we have it now just loading into trailers and transporting or of course AI.
Also in this book the Wentworth Prefix has a good section. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 11:29:55 AM
|
All very interesting and thanks for the info. I spotted that CRIBAN BOWDELL 1939(WSB 166 FS)and has SILVERDALE BOWTINT 1926, as his sire on the allbreeds,I am wondering if this is correct, could someone with the stud books have a look and let us know if they introduced TB in at this stage, or is it a mistake and if so, who is Bowdell's sire, please.
In October last year I was down in Wales and on the top of Rhulan Hill waiting for our crew horse to show on the fist 25mile loop of the 100mile ride, there were welsh ponies all over there running free, I will aford them more attention next time and check them out for signs of those grey Arabs..
Sue |
Sue
|
Edited by - Rozy Rider on 16 Jan 2010 7:05:26 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 5:12:15 PM
|
| The nearest animal that I can find at the moment is Criban Bowbell 1939 by Silverdale Bowtint x Criban Charity. Is this of any use? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pelle
Bronze Member
Sweden
141 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 5:31:59 PM
|
Criban Bowbell 166 FS in the appendix of the Welsh Stud Book vol XXXII.Chestnut, blaze 13 hands,foaled 1939.Sire Silverdale Bowtint
dam 8913 Criban Charity.
Silverdale Bowtint was a chestnut Polo Pony stallion standing 15 hands high foaled in 1926 and bred by Mr Herbert Bright of the Silverdale Stud. Mr Llewellyn Richards had previously purchased Silverdale Loyality (1923) by Prince Friarstown out of SilveryII from Mr Bright and was offered Bowtint very Cheaply after he got cast in his box at the Royal Show.
Silverdale Bowtint was sired by Cherry Tint GSB (a very successful Polo Pony sire who had been exported to the Argentine) and Bowtints dam was Bowery GSB a wellknown mare who had won the Polo Pony progeny competition at Polo Pony Shows three times. Bowtint himself had won a first prize at the Royal Agricultural Soc of England show and after a few years at Criban became perfectly sound again and was sold to Mr Kiddie of South Africa.
Mr Richards later had other Silverdale Stallions at Criban, namely Silverdale Tarragon and Silverdale Aquilla and also Criban Loyalist a bay 13 hh , son of Silverdale Loyality out of Criban Harpist. Criban Loyalist being sire of Criban Red Heather.
(from Mr Wynne Davies book:Welsh Ponies and Cobs.) |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 7:13:55 PM
|
Thanks for the info.
Hazel,Leaving you the link to Sierol, it shows her as out of Brynhir Black Star, not White Star, is there anything in Dr Wynn's book that would confirm her breeding, and is there any reference to who the 'other' three fillies were..it looks as if Sahara 847 - 1909, has some of these missing from his progeny ( alkthough the wqrong Sahara WAS added to Sierol, now correct)...and if there is any of Lady Wentworth's that are identified by SAHARA 1909 BARB. please can you list them for us....Thank You.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tan-y-bwlch+sierol
Mrs Nell Pennell used Silverdale Loyalty (spose while he was at Criban) to cover Goldflake & produced Bwlch Goldflake 1940.Please can you let me know if Dr Wynne has anything about the first Goldflake 1927 and her dam Cigarette.
Leaving the 2009 Brightwells Fair Oaks link..some of the prices have climbed a bit..and I notice that Eyarth Mercury looks a bit araby and goes back to Skovronek on the top line with two helpings of Sahara on the bottom lines...Lovely ponies.
http://www.wpcs.uk.com/society/fayreoaks09.html
Cheers Sue
|
Sue
|
Edited by - Rozy Rider on 18 Jan 2010 2:12:17 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 2:42:09 PM
|
I have been sent a number of horse related documents that were once the property of a Miss Duguid of the Manar Stud in Inverurie, amongst them is a hand drawn pedigree for Grey Squire, a polo pony foaled in 1929. I am putting the details in here because at least that way there is a record of them if anyone is looking.
His Dam was Shirley Silver a grey New Forest 2982 N.F.S.B. who was out of Shirley Sunshine 2984 N.F. Grey, by a New Forest Pony.
The sire was Grey Knight N.P.S.B. Supp. 1925, a Polo Pony, who was out of Tip Top Ch. N.F. 3194 (His Lordship N.F. Bay x Beacon Topsy N.F. Ch) by Sahara 847 Grey Arab N.P.S.B. (Imported) 1st London 3rd London
Shirley Silver won 1st Brockenhurst, 1st + cup + Nat. Pony Soc. Silver Medal Burley (1925)
1st + Lord Arthur Cecil Challenge Cup, Nat. Pony Society Show Islington
2 N.P.S. Premiums (Non Hand Fed Ponies) Lyndhurst
N.P.S Premium Burley.
|
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
| |
Topic |
|
SAHARA- NPS 847-1909 -Found (sire of Welsh Ponies)
SAHARA 847 - 1909.
Tan y Bwlch Berwyn(foaled in 1924) by SAHARA (an Arabian Barb)&