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Zan
Platinum Member
 Scotland
3213 Posts |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2008 : 5:03:30 PM
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I agree, I like his values.  Thanks for posting it, Heather. |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 6:31:38 PM
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None of you "animal loving" meat eaters going to respond to this  ? |
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Kirsty5278
Platinum Member
England
2682 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 7:20:21 PM
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very thought provoking.... but that "tone" is the reason why i didn't respond initially...
thanks for sharing.... |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 7:39:15 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Kirsty5278
very thought provoking.... but that "tone" is the reason why i didn't respond initially...
thanks for sharing....
[/right]
What tone ?
I deliberately kept my first post very neutral. It was disappearing off the bottom so I bumped it up with a mischevious one with a and a That's how it was intended anyway---so no "tone" meant
I genuinely don't understand how lots of really nice caring people ( I do have dear friends who eat meat) can differentiate between different animals by eating some of them. I think anyone who has ever eaten meat---and yes, I have, I wasn't born vegan---can identify with this guy's description of the switch that can be switched on and off for different species. Some of us choose to get rid of the switch, as he has done, and others choose to keep it. I am really interested in why people want to keep it because all animals are the same to me. |
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Kirsty5278
Platinum Member
England
2682 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 7:43:01 PM
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I do if meat...
perhaps because i have been blinkered or sheltered from the truth of it...
but I am very much an animal lover...
I suppose if I was confronted with it and actually owned a farm myself non of my animals would ever go to slaughter and I would resign myself to eating toast and marmite for the rest of my days. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 7:51:55 PM
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I don't like Marmite so if that was all there was to a meatless diet I would be stuck with toast
I eat VERY well---a wide variety of food that even visiting meat eaters find tasty.
Thanks for replying Kirsty |
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Goldenmane
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4964 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 07:35:38 AM
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| Just watched it, what a lovely man. Thanks for posting. |
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Kirsty5278
Platinum Member
England
2682 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 11:20:51 AM
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I was thinking last night after that video.... maybe I should stop living such a sheltered life and expose myself to the side of "meat production" which I protect myself from....
Its very easy to think.... sunday roast, I need a joint of beef and nip to the butcher and get one.... I never actually think of "before".... so I suppose I am very much guilty of the "switch" that the man discusses...
I would never dream of buying rabbit or god forbid cat, dog, horse meat but why does it make it ok for me to buy pig, cow and sheep meat???
would it really make a difference if I only bought meat from farmers where I knew the animal had lived a "nice" life.... but why should it when a life is a life is a life....
as I said... a very thought provoking video.... and I am now more than a little confused.......
sorry this probaly makes no sense whatsoever, as I said, I'm now quite confused with how I feel about it all! |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 6:26:07 PM
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It does make sense Kirsty.
We are all brought up to think it is okay to eat certain animals and all of us try to hold on to that, even when the confusion starts, which is why I think this guy explains " the switch" so well. It isn't easy to confront the double standards we are living by.
Yes, it is definitely better to eat animals who at least have had a decent life before they were killed---I have no respect at all for anyone who eats the produce of intensive farming where animals have no life, but just an existence of misery--but the logical progression from that is that it would be okay to kill and eat the gentle, trusting cows in the sanctuary in this video, because they are clearly living happy lives.
All animals are the same to me. I know it is possible to have as close a relationship with a cow or a sheep as a horse, dog or cat, so I know they all have equal potential. I would never eat any animal, but I don't feel smug about that, or judgemental of others, because I know it can be a difficult journey to rethink "normality". That's why I posted this---it certainly touched a spot with me, and I can identify with him. I'm glad it also touched a spot with you---confusion means questioning, which is always good |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 7:16:52 PM
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I thought very much like you for many years Zan, and indeed ate no meat, fowl ,fish or by-products for years. I lived with a vegan Zealot for some of those years and indeed my brother , his wife and their kids were all vegan for years ( now neither of the kids are and neither is my brother although he eats only "sourced" meat and fish and then, very little)....and then I started to look at how meat is produced, (not just how I imagined it )and the lives of animals, and the distinctions I was making.
I then met my husband, who had travelled alot, and we travelled more. I ate many many things that I would never have dreamed of eating in different countries. I came to realise that we will never have a world without meat, and nor would I want one. I do not make a distinction between animals I would and wouldn't eat ,only animal I can and can't eat. Those I can come from local farmers, who look after their animals and make sure that they have a stressless life....and death.Be it kid-goat, hens, pigs, cows, sheep( no I have never eaten horse because they are not treated well at all, in any country)aligator, water buffalo, Kudu,zebra,or anything else, I need to know where, who and how it was produced as much as possible .My kids have never eaten "dirty meat" as in intensivly farmed supermarket rubbish.When we do eat meat we eat all of it, cook the carcass and do not waste anything at all. I do not feel I would ever go back to vegetarianism,I no longer feel the need.but I do understand if people do not eat any animal at all. Although many drugs, plastics, fabrics,glazing agents, etc etc in household products contain animal by prodcts that many of us are in complete ignorance of.So I suppose it really is up to the individual to draw their own lines and decide when , if ever to cross them. |
   
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 7:51:50 PM
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Polly--of course it is up to the individual to draw their own lines.You have moved your position back from vegetarianism to meat eating and I have moved mine out from vegetarianism to veganism, and I extend that to products other than food --- try to avoid anything with animal products or that are tested on animals. I say "try" beacause I am quite pragmatic---not a zealot at all---life is difficult enough without forcing myself to live by rules of my own making. E.g. Zaharoff's saddle is leather because I wouldn't compromise his back by making him wear a synthetic when the leather one fits him better; and my carnivorous rescued animals eat meat based food---as ethically sourced as possible.
Because society revolves around the killing of animals for our use, it is impossible to avoid all contact with it, but I believe that it is possible for me to live as true to myself as possible within that society.Every little helps, and everyone's decisions should be informed decisions. I do what I can and that is better than doing nothing.
I still have a problem understanding why anyone who truly cares for animals can accept that killing and eating certain animals is okay.Nothing you have said explains that to me, though you clearly don't have a blinkered approach and have thought out your position.Clearly we will never understand each other and that is fine----no way can we all understand each other.
Incidentally, I have extensive and detailed knowledge of the meat industry---intensive and otherwise---so I haven't just "imagined" how meat is produced I made sure I educated myself way back in the beginning when I first became vegetarian, and work on the Committee of an animal protection organisation which produces reports and campaigns on various animal issues.Although a lot of what goes on in intensive systems is absolutely shocking the moral issue to me is simply that I see all animals as the same. As Kirsty said above"I
would never dream of buying rabbit or god forbid cat, dog, horse meat but why does it make it ok for me to buy pig, cow and sheep meat???" To me, it just isn't okay
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 8:19:16 PM
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I think I can see where you are coming from, I suppose to me, a dead animal is the same as a dead anything.The life lived is the only important bit. My body after my death is to be used in any way possible, ...for transplants ( hopefully! if I haven't wrecked it by then ) for study, for art, if the crazy Austrian artist wants it. I see bodies as just a collection of fluid, gases, and minerals, that can be used for something...anything.So by keeping animals , and then killing them to eat them ( NOT waste them) I know that it can be done without stress, dreadful living contitions, without horror. I feel more angered by the waste of food , and the amount of people starving. It is so imbalanced. But I do applaud you for your stance.(I have very little time for people who chastise people for eating meat and then go about using other animal products with a saintlyer than thou attitude)I am trying to teach my kids about making informed choices..they know where the roast lamb comes from, and if one day they decide meat is not for them, that will be ok,..........of course if they decided no veg....I will have something to say about that! |
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
Edited by - polly on 24 May 2008 8:27:25 PM |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 09:06:58 AM
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| Originally posted by polly
But I do applaud you for your stance.(I have very little time for people who chastise people for eating meat and then go about using other animal products with a saintlyer than though attitude
But Polly, we were just agreeing that everyone must draw their own lines of what is acceptable. I wouldn't like the chastising, or saintlier than thou attitude either, but it is a perfectly valid line to draw to find it unacceptable to consume the flesh of another sentient being, even if you do no more. Just because you can't/don't do everything doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything You can pick holes in the line anyone draws---your own one for example. I wouldn't pick holes in it of course, but if I was going to, I would say that it may be possible for all the meat you buy to cook at home to fall within your line of acceptability, but every time you or your family go to a cafe, pub, takeaway, most restaurants the meat available is from intensive systems, and then there are all the animal products in cakes and biscuits,the household products you mentioned earlier and of course eating abroad where the welfare standards in a lot of countries are much worse than here. It is impossible to have a perfect line to live by, but no one should be put off showing compassion in whatever way they can because horror still exists beyond it.
There is a lot more to death than being dead. When my mare Rosa died, my young mare Samantha stood over her grave for three days and was miserable for weeks.I am sure a zebra would be as mourned by a friend, and that a cow grieves for her calf as much as a mare would for her foal.The line I draw is that they will not suffer in my name.
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 10:13:59 PM
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| I'm bumping this up because I really think it is a heart warming video, and might help the despair and hopelessness that some are feeling when they look at Ghaleem's wonderful, but disturbing Earthlings videos. There is hope, and there is a way forward |
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